Something I Found Fascinating

[the_gneech]

Speaking for myself, the straw that broke the camel's back fell during this year's Emerald City Con in Seattle. I'd stepped out to smoke a cigarette and was watching the passersby. I noticed a family leaving the convention -- a Mom, a Dad, and a little girl no older than eight years of age. The girl was decked out in a beautiful, elaborate kimono and clearly distressed by what she'd just encountered. "But they didn't hardly have any manga at all!" she said as they walked away.

When I was done with my cigarette, I went back inside and relayed this story to an acquaintance prominent in the art-comics publishing scene. "I hate to say it, but good," was his reply. Indeed, I told the story several more times that day, to both indy-comics and superhero-comics professionals, and the reaction was more or less the same each time. A young reader disappointed by the selection offered to her? Good. The future of comics walks out the door, unable to find what she wants? Good. I left the convention early, lost in a foul mood. I swear: I love the comics art form with a passion, but my utter contempt for the American comics industry grows like a cancer with each passing day.

The Comics Journal: She's Got Her Own Thing Now -- A very interesting op-ed about the rise of manga in general and shouju in particular, and the "western" comics world's total inability to grok what's going on.

What fascinates me about it is that a lot of the stuff that's covered here is exactly my beef with the comics scene -- and one of the reasons I'm so interested in furry comics. Omaha the Cat Dancer, Carpe Diem, and so forth are all a lot closer to manga than they are to any superhero comic, and I think that it's with the manga fans that furry has the most room for expansion.

FWIW, although I have my problems with the prevailing trends of manga art style, all of the contemporary non-furry comic books I read are manga, except for Dark Horse's Conan series. Because that's where the interesting stories are. The best Detective Comics I ever read (and I have read some good ones) didn't appeal to me as much as any given issue of Love Hina for instance. Despite the slant of the particular essay above, I don't really think it's as much a boy/girl thing as all that. Why would there even be the concept of "fanservice" (largely meaning panty shots) in the manga world if it only appealed to women?

Speaking as a card-carrying member of the male sex, as far as I'm concerned, bring on the manga revolution!

-The Gneech

PS: As crazy as the term "American manga" is, it points towards something I'd really love to see -- and in fact towards something I would like to help create. Right now, my thinking on the subject is half-baked, so I'm sorta rambling. But the idea is definitely brewing in my mind!

Comments

[the-lizard-rat.livejournal.com]

Maybe try a little experiment and manga-ify the SJ cast for a storyline? I think Dover, Leona and Tiff would rock as manga characters.

Though somehow I can't see Leonard making a good transition to that...

Lizard Rat out.
Not much of a Manga fan in Albany NY

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

It's not the art style I'm referring to, tho. :)

-TG

[vakkotaur.livejournal.com]

It might not be the art style to which you are referring, but that is what I think of when I see or hear "manga" (or "anime" for that matter). A style that I find so off-putting that it no longer matters how good the story itself may be. A good or even great story simply isn't worth the headache of having to look at that. And I'm generally of the opinion that good writing can overcome bad artwork much easier than great artwork can overcome a mediocre story.

I read the linked article a while ago and I'll agree that there is a failure of market analysis. What I expect to happen, given most marketing analysis failures, is the blatant copying and promotion of all the wrong things - much like how all too much television animation has copied the crudeness of Ren & Stimpy in blatant me-too-ism rather than the humor that made the crudeness worth suffering through.

Oh, and I don't much care for the superhero comics either, for what it's worth.

[wbwolf.livejournal.com]

I'm curious to what you happen to find so "off putting" about the manga art style. Manga style is as individual as the artist. A manga like Initial D is very crude artistically, CLAMP tends to be very big eyes in the shoujo mode, Ryoichi Ikegami (Mai, The Psychic Girl; Crying Freeman) does beautifully detail and realistic figures and there's pretty everything in between. As the article noted, manga is a metacategory (not unlike furry), so it means a lot of different things to different people.

I should note, as a side point, that the best looking Animaniacs episodes were done by TMS, who also animated such anime like Sherlock Hound and Lupin III.

[vakkotaur.livejournal.com]

I am quite aware that TMS did the best Animaniacs animation. I don't know that I've seen anything else they've done, however. I'm not apt to go spending any money on anime when all the "free samples" I've seen have been unwatchable for me. Jay got some anime a couple years ago and I tried watching a bit of it. He picked out the one episode of the series he'd figure I'd like and I'll admit it had some humor in it, but the animation style and character design still made me glad when it was over.

As for manga, I can't quite put a finger on it, but it seems oddly stylized and somehow both overdone and underdone at the same time to me. The examples I've seen, or the stuff I've seen in attempted copies (sadly most of Furrlough seems to look this way now) just turn me off so much that I find the story unreadable. Every time I've found some manga title recommended to me in a comic shop, I flip through it and have an "Ugh!" reaction. Maybe it's that I haven't been de-sensitized by videogames?

I could take the linked article, I think, and replace "manga" with "good writing" and largely agree with it. It seems that is pretty much the point of the article, that good writing and story that isn't the same old superhero story retold works. That having the originator retain control of the story (or franchise) helps authenticity.

Correction

[vakkotaur.livejournal.com]

Going back and looking, it seems I was not amused by the anime (http://vakkotaur.livejournal.com/29046.html) episode. My memory seems to have been a bit optimistic about it.

Re: Correction

[kylet.livejournal.com]

As a long-time fan of the Ranma 1/2 series, let me offer this perspective:
--I don't think I have seen that episode in question.
--I've noticed not many people enjoy the series if they are dumped into it, even with explanation, and it sits better if they've seen it from the start.
--It may sound like a soap opera, but the point of the series is goofy, impossible, Crouching Tiger highwire-esque martial arts in a bunch of weird styles (including martial arts eating, martial arts tea ceremonies, and martial arts cheapskateness). The crazy romances and interrelationships are there to introduce a large cast and cause distractions and infighting--it's pretty straightforward once you know who everyone is. FWIW, Ranma 1/2 is a pretty poor example of strong anime character development and writing, but then again I don't know if it's a particularly female-oriented series like the article discussed.
Coincidentally given this thread, I believe the manga is considered better than the anime; I know *I* sure think so. The dubbed voices are pretty bad, too. And I can certainly say I don't watch it for the character design.

[chipuni.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think that Suburban Jungle's plot line is close to being a manga...

...though I hope that The Gneech doesn't choose to make Tiffy et. al into big-eyed, tiny-nosed chibi-manga style... (Take the best from Japanese comics, not the most famous part!)

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think that Suburban Jungle's plot line is close to being a manga...

Heh. Thanks! :) This is, on some ways, what I'm going for with it. More now than when I started, in fact.

And no, there are no plans to mangle my art, so to speak. ;) Although there are some influences that have been coming through (such as ^.^ eyes and the increase of characters going CRASH! at big surprises).

-The Gneech

[vakkotaur.livejournal.com]

And no, there are no plans to mangle my art...

Thank you! I seem to be allergic to manga-nese.

[maus-merryjest.livejournal.com]

I do like how a lot of manga works, storyline-wise... but the artwork, I'm not very fond of the style- I love the use of elegant linework, and more often than not the oversimplified facial features of anime/manga characters makes me feel a little cheated.
And then there's the "I want to be Japanese" fanboys who think Japan is just one big manga....*twitch*

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Erm ... not to be snarky, but you do realize the irony of making that comment with the icon you used, right? ^.^'

-TG

[maus-merryjest.livejournal.com]

*grins* Of course :)

The style doesn't really speak to me.

But I'm also not going to look at gift art in the tooth, if you know what I mean ;)

[stryal.livejournal.com]

I'll agree with you. Though I'm not a big manga lover, not really fond of the style to begin with, if she was looking for something specific..then she should have found it...and NOT have the comic industry saying Good. Sheesh. When someone walks into my coffee house/bistro...if I don't have what they're looking for...I KNOW where they CAN find it! Period! I have no qualms redirecting them to an eatery that they'll find what they're looking for. Why? Because I KNOW they'll remember me going out of my way, being polite and making sure that THEY were taken care of! Then when they're in the area again...I get 'em this time! Have had it happen a LOT.

[vakkotaur.livejournal.com]

As someone who has been re-directed by another business I can say that this is certainly true. Even when I know I am unlikely to find what I am looking for there, I will start my looking at the place that once told me I would do better looking somewhere else and naming a competitor. Sure, their competitor got a sale that day, but they got the repeat business.

[daemionfox.livejournal.com]

My only bitch I've ever made about Manga is how many hundreds of would be manga-ka's (American in specific, but just generally speaking) who pick up a "How to Draw Manga" series and immediately declare themselves a manga artist.

The problem is before you can go to the simple styles (or even the styilized styles, and yes, this includes toon and anthro) you need to study the more basic things, like anatomy. You got to learn the rules before you break em. The explosion of the genre is great, the fanbase reaction (Oh, I can do that! It's Easy!) is less so.

Just shooting off my 2 bits.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Webcomics are the same way. Heck, that's how I started, except replace "manga" with "comic strip."

-TG

[larksilver.livejournal.com]

I don't get the manga thing at all.. I am not large on the art style, and I often actively dislike the storytelling. Maybe I haven't watched or read enough to absorb the "language" and understand the manga universe. Maybe it loses something in translation to English (goodness knows I've seen some BAD voice-overs). I have given it a shot or three, but always come away scratching my head, wondering why people like that stuff.

Then there's the "danger" factor for me, as a parent, in manga/anime. It's all cutesy-fied, even the hentai; it all looks like it was made for kids.. right up to the point where the thing grows tentacles or something. Even the things ostensibly "okay" for kids often have more mature subject matter than I would be comfortable throwing at my 8-year-old.

But.

I also don't get the attitude. I don't get why anyone who wanted to stay in business would be glad that a kid walked away unhappy. I don't get why it's so hard to find good comics for my 3-year-old, where even Batman and Superman (heavily marketed to children, mind) don't have very kid-friendly books. I just don't grok it. bleeeeh.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Which ones have you seen/read, just out of curiosity? Because there are plenty of bad ones out there. Most manga is not for kids -- the Japanese target audience is late teens and yuppies.

-The Gneech

[larksilver.livejournal.com]

hmm. I've seen bits of the shows on Cartoon Network; even the ones which were enormously popular, like Cowboy BeBop, were.. well, icky. I waded through several manga books when I worked at a Comic shop a few years ago, and even in cases where I wanted.. really really wanted to like it.. well, I didn't. Ghost in the Machine, for instance, was intriguing, but I just felt kind of cheated. I also endured the English version of Akira, and a whole load of ton of DragonBall shows, as well as episodes of Sailor Moon, CardCaptor.. etc.

I think, if I had to point to 3 things I notice, nearly universally, from this sampling, it would be these:

1) The story always leaves me with big honkin' unanswered questions. "But why do they build giant robots?" "But why do only these kids have these powers?" As stated above, I may be missing some fundamental context here.

2) Although there are aspects of the art style which are, occasionally, breathtaking, I can't get past the rest of it. I mean, look at that hair!. It's just.. wow.

3) The females portrayed in the manga/anime I've seen are all sort of caricatures. There's the sassy, take-charge girl, the smart, waifish one, the whining little spoiled princess, etc.... I have yet to see one where a woman isn't just a plot device, and it leaves me cold.

It's #3 which worries me about my teenage nephews and niece, in fact. It's bad enough that so many American shows aimed at teens are full of stuff like kids hopping in and out of bed with each other, and even with their teachers, with no real consequences for irresponsible behavior. It's bad enough that girls (and boys) are inundated with impossible images of how relationships should work, and how they should look while living through it.

Now we have an entire set of literature aimed at girls, and at boys, in which it's almost impossible to find a balanced, "just-a-girl" character. For comic effect, perhaps, or to make it easier for each girl to find a Favorite Character to identify with, it's as though the different aspects of girlhood (and boyhood, too) are split into different individuals, with no well-rounded people in the lot.

Not that American comics are much better, I might add. We've all seen the t-n-a and the ridiculous pecs, and such. And of course, the other issues listed above that make them a "boy's club."

geeez I sound like an old fart. But really, I'm not! It's just .. a concern of mine, is all.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Well, some of that is the culture thing -- Japan has real problems with gender issues across the board -- as well as a cultural predisposition towards forcing people into a stereotype whether they want to be one or not.

However, there are some series that are very, erm, "pro-girl" for lack of a better term. I'd recommend the original Japanese version of Cardcaptor Sakura in particular on that score.

As for why building giant robots ... why do people dress in brightly-colored costumes to fight (or commit) crime? It's just a genre convention. :)

-The Gneech

[confusedoo.livejournal.com]

I think there are a couple of really good points in the article. I think it's a much better understanding of the term 'manga' than usual. The distinction between the art style typically thought of as 'manga' and the super-genre of 'manga' is something a lot of people don't get. One other point I think should be made is the aparent backlash against manga. I think it gets a bad rap because of the way it arrives in America. Quite a few of the 'early adopters' of the genre are hardcore Japan-o-philes who often seem to worship anything and everything coming out of Japan. Between them and the self-described 'otaku' (btw, otaku = super obsessed = NOT HEALTHY! It's not something to aspire to be!) they push everything, the great as well as the mediocre. They foster a negative stereotype, and hence people associate manga with the hardcore fans. (footnote: not entirely unlike the furry fandom)

I originaly wanted to write my thesis on manga, before I got caught up in graphic design. Probably a good thing as it's hard to find sufficient serious sources to support a thesis.

[rhanlav.livejournal.com]

I agree. I read a few comics that aren't mangas, but most of them aren't mainstream comics, unless you consider Gold Digger to be mainstream, but considering I've never seen it in a Books-A-Million, I hold the right to say its not. Then again, I like most of Antarctic Press' comics just because they tend to do stuff that you don't see in the usual US comics.

But yeah, mangas are nice to get your hands on. I'm enjoying reading Naruto a lot, but mostly because it was the only thing I could get of Naruto since they just recently started airing the episodes in the states.

Oh, and Marvel and Antarctic Press did a bunch of 'hybrid' comics a while back. About.. 2 years I think, called "Manga-Verse". Take the standard Marvel universe, and kick it up like 15 notches. It was awesome to see Fred Perry make some of the comics just absolutely eyepoppingly insanely cool. You should look into it if you can find some of them.

[doodlesthegreat.livejournal.com]

You know, I spoke with my local comics retailer about this article the week that it came out. He just didn't get it. He claimed he was marketing to the manga crowd, but plastered on the walls were back issues of the latest spandex crap, and all his front window displays were the most scantily clad superheroines that money could buy. His idea of retailing to the manga market? A single bookshelf full of books in plastic covers.

Oish.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Yup. Carrying a small selection of a product is hardly the same as "marketing to the crowd." :)

-The Gneech

[larksilver.livejournal.com]

When I worked at a comics shop, however, we only offered a moderate selection of manga. The manga readers just weren't our primary base. When people *did* come in looking for manga, they wanted whatever was on Cartoon Network at the time; anything else just sat on our shelves and grew dust. /boggle

We couldn't keep the (cough) ohsonotbootleg (cough) subtitled original Dragonball movies on the shelf, though....

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

The argument I've read there is largely one of "the manga readers don't know to look there and tend to get hostile reactions when they do."

The Cartoon Network thing I can easily see happening ... it's like how at Borders we used to have a person whose job it was to find out what Oprah was going to plug that week and make sure we had a table stocked with it, because her mindless minions would all come in "must ... buy ... Oprah ... recommendation..."

-TG

[laurie-robey.livejournal.com]

I used to think I hated all anime until I saw Cowboy Bebop. Now I know that there are some I really like (Bebop, Love Hina, Cardcaptor Sakura, Comic Party), some that are just okay, and some that I still hate. Manga's the same way. I'm not particularly thrilled with what most people consider the manga art style, but there are plenty out there that don't follow that style as closely. And the writing of some of the mange and anime is much more interesting than Western comics. I like the premise of Batman, et. al., but really, how many stories can you write about one character before you're just repeating yourself? There is an audience that has so far been untapped by Western comics. If Western comics are too snobbish to give them what they want, fine, let someone else make a profit off them.

[vik_thor]

Thank you for the link to this article! Very interesting!

My take on this:
Manga tends to be more character and story oriented, whereas American mainstream comics tend to be more action oriented. (by which spectrum, SJ would be more on the Manga end.)

An excellent manga (imo) is Oh, My Goddess!

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

You're welcome! And that's basically how I see it, as well. :)

-TG

[stilghar.livejournal.com]

I haven't read much Manga, myself, but of the few titles I have browsed at, I've noted an irritating tendency on the part of at least one publisher/importer:

They translated the books into English, but left the original Japanese right-to-left page format unaltered. This makes the books an Imperial pain in the patoot to read for someone not accustomed to it.

This is the main reason I've not yet read all of the four volumes of -FAKE- that are merrily gathering dust on my shelf.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

That would be TokyoPop. They do that to cut costs -- flipping the manga means flipping the Japanese text on signs and sound effects, which means retouching art on almost every panel. That becomes a massive effort of time and expense.

It took me about one collected volume to get used to reading it unflipped -- now I don't have any trouble with it. :) Keep trying!

-The Gneech

[wbwolf.livejournal.com]

I should also note that other publishers, not just TokyoPop, like Dark Horse, Viz, CPM, etc., are now shifting to the unflipped left-to-right format. The main reason why the switch was because many of the more rabid fans complained because of reversed artwork and then TP discovered that it's also cheaper to produce. About the only manga that is produced in the US that is in the left to right format anymore are kids titles or those that are created by American artists (TP has a growing number of English original manga titles).

And as Gneech mentioned, once you get use to going the other way, it's fairly easy to understand the flow since that is how the original layout was designed.