4E Really Looking Bad Now... :( [gaming]

[the_gneech]

Y'know, lots of the WotC staff and playtesters keep saying things like, "Having been on 4E for a while, I just can't stand the idea of going back to 3.5 -- 4E is so much faster/simpler/whateverer!" This is a statement to which I'm somewhat sympathetic, as it's sorta how I feel about SWSE vs. 3.5, so with that in mind I was really hoping that, even though they killed the magazines [1], I might at least come to like 4E.

Well, unless something really unexpected comes up between now and then, that ain't gonna happen.

If you're wondering what I'm basing it on, it's primarily a "fan created" PHB based on preview materials released so far, including the "preview play" games handed out at the recent D&D Experience convention. I recommend that if you're interested in 4E at all, you download it and take a look.

First of all, there's the races. Tieflings are a core race. Eladrin have a 5-square teleport as a racial ability.

Then, the classes. Every vaguely-magical class is firing off spells with a flash and a bang all over the place. Paladins do smites that make magic shields appear in front of buddies. Rangers shoot arrows in two directions simultaneously. And this is all at first level!

Basically, it's all "Turn it up to 11!!!!!1"-ified, with all of the worst annoying D&D cheese cranked right up at first level, with the promise of worse things to come.

If you're still interested, you might also want to check out this monsters compilation. In particular, as a ferinstance, check out the "Hobgoblin Soldier" on page 8 of the PDF. As the name implies, he's a hobgoblin armed with a flail, so far so good. What does a flail do? Damage, of course. But a successful hit also slows the target.

Um ... why? The 4E answer seems to be "BECAUSE THAT'S KEWL!!!" Or something. 0.o

This is followed by "Formation Strike." This is a power in which the hobgoblin attacks, does damage, and then moves one square. Okay. But only if he ends up next to another hobgoblin. Ga-buh? No hobgoblin, he's stuck and place and can only wail on you with his amazing slow-bestowing flail. But with another hobgoblin, instead of slowing you, HE moves instead.

Um ... why?

And this is a 3rd level monster. A mook. They've all got stuff like that. The "Goblin Picador" sticks you with a harpoon and you can't move away from him. Kobolds get +1 if there's another kobold nearby. Gnolls do more damage if there are 2 more gnolls nearby. Just lots of random effects scattered all over the place. I grok that it makes for more diverse combats than just "roll, do damage, roll, do damage" -- but unless there's some underlying system for it all, it's also a nasty mess of the "every monster is its own rule" variety.

(One of the things that lythandra often bemoans about D&D is that every spell is its own rule that you have to know on top of the core mechanics. 4E has expanded that so that every friggin' creature is its own rule. 0.o)

So ... yeah ... not liking the direction this seems to be moving in. Looks like I may end up doing Sword-and-Sorcery SAGA from now on...

-The Gneech

[1] No, I still haven't forgiven them.

Comments

[gamera-spinning.livejournal.com]

Some interesting alternatives:
Vincent Baker's In a Wicked Age
Luke Crane's Burning Wheel
True 20
Clinton R. Nixon's Shadows of Yesterday

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Well, if I'm gonna run an "off brand" game anyway, I might as well use my own semi-homebrew (http://www.gneech.com/swordandsorcery/index.html). ;) I have no real love for D&D in itself, the main reason I use it is "everybody uses it," and therefore finding players is easier, at least in theory.

My favorite system is actually 5th-edition HERO, although now that I've played a little more SWSE I actually think that it may be a better system for a group made of more casual players. HERO was pretty hardcore, even in 1988.

-The Gneech

[aki-no-kaze.livejournal.com]

and that is why I end up making up nearly every rule for my campaigns :(

[kesh.livejournal.com]

I love the direction it's moving in. This is the "action movie" version of D&D, which is something I think will be a fun change.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

It's not the action that bugs me, it's the comic-bookness of it all. If I was running the fantasy equivalent of Dirty Pair, for instance, it might work very well. But I tend to delve more into the realm of Conan and his ilk.

-The Gneech

[kesh.livejournal.com]

The thing with Conan is, you really have to excise all the PC magic users, which takes a lot out of D&D.

I'm hopefully going to get a chance to play a 4e demo this weekend, so I'll see what I think then. It'll be interesting to compare to the 3.5e Living Greyhawk adventure I played last month.

[graveyardgreg.livejournal.com]

I see that character creation...sucks.

I don't mind the builds, but now any character gets a +2 to their stats. There are no negatives. None.

Um...why? Because that's kewl or something?

Bah!

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

People prefer bonuses to penalties -- it's just a different way of doing the same math. (You could say that everybody gets -2 to four abilities, and it would work out the same but people would be griping about it.) Really, to me at least, that's neither a positive or a negative, just a change.

-The Gneech

[graveyardgreg.livejournal.com]

I don't like it, but I've grown used to the bonuses and penalties over the years.

[harper-knight.livejournal.com]

Okay, the Formation Strike thing makes sense in general (I've been reading and working with the team-tactics stuff in Heroes of Battle, and it makes sense anyway) because it's a teamwork thing, like he's following through on the movement in which he attacks you in order to consolidate with his, uh, friend. Honestly, that's a perfectly good ability. Would be better if it was a feat that anyone could take and hobgobbys just usually take it, and not some stupid racial ability. That'd make actual sense, see.

The slow-inducing flail is just stupid though. Flails don't slow you down. Not more than getting hit by anything else large and painful. Do ALL flails slow now or just hobgobby ones? It's stupid either way, but?

[raishi-fox.livejournal.com]

I don't think he's complaining about the Formation Strike, or any other ability, on it's own. It's more the fact that every monster has some kind of special ability that requires memorizing a new rule that applies only to that one monster. It's an idea that sounds good at first; obviously, making different types of monsters unique would make battles more interesting, and take a lot of repetitiveness out of fighting, but it's not going to be great on the DM.

My problem with it is how restrictive it all seems to be as far as the DM's creativity. I'm the type of DM that doesn't always stick by the published rules, I'd rather make up different situations and rules for battles as I go. A highly trained gnoll army might get extra abilities working together in one of my games, but it's because they're a special group, not because "all gnolls fight together well." It might not be everyone's idea of good DMing, but my players never seem to mind, and my interpretation of the 3/3.5E DM guide encourages that kind of thing. From what I've seen, 4th edition rules seem to be trying to take that back from DMs, limit them to "this is exactly what this monster/race/character does, every time". That's not fun for me; I want to be a storyteller and do things my way, not play the role of a server in an MMO game, doing simple calculations and following set rules.

[harper-knight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was just pointing out for no real reason that that particular rule is perfectly good :P

I know he wasn't complaining about the abilities on their own, and I agree totally that all monsters having rules for just that monster is dumb and silly and should be boinked over the head with a very large cluehammer.

And as for it being restrictive on the DM's creativity, I totally, the few times I've DMed, I did it in a way similar to how you mention it, and I was always swapping out the 'this monster has so-and-so feats' from the MM to suit my particular monster better. And the way everything is in feats and whatnot in 3.5 does encourage that sort of thing.

So I pretty much totally agree with your complaints. We should send a petition to Wizards telling them to not be idiots.

It's looking more and more like if I ever DM again using D&D rules, I'll stick to 3.5. I'll get the core set of 4 when I can afford them in dead-tree just because I'm almost certain to end up playing in games of it, because someone in my group will at least try it out, and there are powergamers who will love it. But 3.5 looks better to me.

I'm gonna be an old fogey who purposefully uses an older version when there's a new one out before I hit 20. Damn.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

I don't think he's complaining about the Formation Strike, or any other ability, on it's own. It's more the fact that every monster has some kind of special ability that requires memorizing a new rule that applies only to that one monster. It's an idea that sounds good at first; obviously, making different types of monsters unique would make battles more interesting, and take a lot of repetitiveness out of fighting, but it's not going to be great on the DM.

That, plus (to use a cliché that I normally hate), it seems, well, "videogamey" to have "kobolds are the little guys that come at you in hordes; hobgoblins are the guys who slow you down; goblins are the guys who stick you in place" etc. There's a good reason why critters are set up like that in MMOs, namely the limitations of computer programming and A.I. complexity -- but in a tabletop RPG with the infinite imaginations of the GM and players at your disposal, why would you go that route?

-The Gneech

[raishi-fox.livejournal.com]

*nods* I agree 100% on that one, that's pretty much exactly what I meant about not wanting to be playing the part of an online game server.

[strredwolf.livejournal.com]

Somehow the Dead Alewives' "Dungeons and Dragons" play comes to mind.

"I CAST MAGIC MISSILE!"

groan

[tehrasha.livejournal.com]

I have the sudden urge to take all of 2nd edition books, and seal them away in a lead box..

[mecampbellesq.livejournal.com]

I just flipped through it quickly before bed. I'm going to be having nightmares now...

[aj-hyena.livejournal.com]

The only thing more "campy" than this is the 1960s Batman TV show...

Ageis J. Hyena, signing off, over and out.

[stilghar.livejournal.com]

Gaah. Now I miss 2nd Ed. AD&D. :P

[dilletante.livejournal.com]

huh. "every monster/spell/item has its own rule" was the problem with 1st ed. so they've come full circle. bleah.

i'll have to take a look at the pdf... a pc race having teleport at 1st level doesn't actually inherently bother me; i was actually really annoyed by the 3ed decision that flight is inherently too cool for you lowly 1st-level characters, even if you are adults of a flying race. (and more generally the level-based skill cap: you can't have a low-level street urchin who happens to be a chess prodigy, say, he must instead be a high-level specialist or something. "quick, go kill some orcs, boy! you need to level up so you can work on your pawn defense!")

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

In re: flying, I understand your gripe, but then what do you say to the 1st level dwarven fighter who's stuck on the ground while your 1st level raptorian (or whatever) is buzzing all over the map and avoiding every obstacle? In that particular case, it is pretty unbalancing.

-The Gneech

[dilletante.livejournal.com]

to the dwarf? i probably say "what part of the racial description made you expect to be a swift and nimble avoider of obstacles, exactly?" :) and if he keeps griping perhaps i say "okay, one word: wingspan." and have an adventure set in pretty much any series of small enclosed spaces.

the dwarf (who's up how many con points on average?) doesn't seem like the ideal test case to me. i can see being grumpy at having the flying pc outmaneuver your 1st-level human barbarian with 18 str and 3 ranks of climbing, 3 ranks of jumping, and 3 ranks of acrobatics, who after spending all those points on it still doesn't have even comparable movement, though.

but i have no problem making it cost. maybe learning to fly is really hard! so that you get fewer skill points elsewhere, have to devote feats to it to be any good, etc etc. so that in effect being able to fly is one of the main distinguishing features your character has in any mixed-race party. and i think that's kinda what they were aiming for. i just think "oh, and 1st level characters can't fly at all" is taking it too far; in the same way that city of heroes did with its similar power structure, it makes 1st-level characters whose conception is based around flying look really, really dumb.

[skytech.livejournal.com]

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons for Attention Deficit Disorder. Hack & Slash Munchkins unite!

Sorry, I ain't going this way. I've been running DnD fairly regularly for over fifteen years. I was learly about V3 but found it a decent step up especially with the D20 system. V3.5 erked me but I got it.

V4 is a whole 'nuther animal. I have the older Star Wars RPG which was good. My group does like Saga edition for the fast pace of play because it feels lIke Star Wars. Hearing they were doing that to DnD just didn't sit well. For me DnD doesn't feel right to be dumbed down to yet another almost-a-minis-game. SWSE has very little opponents I can mix and match so scenarios start to look the same. There's a zillion minis but very little RPG stats available. We going to see the same for DnD?

One of my gaming buddies has pre-ordered it. He's hyped for it! Most of the group seem to prefer wading into an encounter and very quickly mowing down the opposition then staring at me waiting for the next experience point encounter. Sounds like this is what they want but I said *I* won't buy or run it. Should be interesting how our gaming goes in the future. I may be boxing my DnD material into the basement.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

In re: SWSE, there are more supplements coming out in the next year if you want more critters'n'such. But in the meantime, there are a ton of perfectly serviceable fan-made conversions around. Look here for some great resources:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=932032

-The Gneech

[confusedoo.livejournal.com]

Wow. I've never really played many tabletop RPGs, as I didn't know any dungeon master/storyteller/general runner of game people, but this sounds exactly like what WotC does with Magic the Gathering. All the boring overpriced creature cards have some semi-useless ability attempting to bribe you to put them in a deck, and allowing hopeless obsessives to find extra bits of 'broken' to abuse. Just wait till they start issuing monthly/daily errata to memorize to try and fix what they broke.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's another thing I worry about with this. With so many fiddly little rules scattered all over the place, things could quickly start breaking right and left. The overarching attitude seems to be, "leave the designing to us game designers," as well -- but since no GM worth his salt does, there's going to be badly-made Frakenrules popping up in every game.

-The Gneech

[rhanlav.livejournal.com]

Does this mean 4e isn't Saga edition? Darn. Oh well.

--salen

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Alas, no. I would have loved that. I'm not sure just WHAT 4e is ... but I'm inclined to say "a mess."

-TG

[rhanlav.livejournal.com]

4e's gunna be advertised as being "Not your father's D&D game", and it'll be called the "most action packed game since your last rules lawyering session"?

[jamesbarrett.livejournal.com]

That isn't D&D. It doesn't even vaguely resemble anything I think of when I think D&D. I don't know what it is, but tell it to stop masquerading as D&D cause now it's making me very angry. humph. -Frisk

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Not even D&D Miniatures: The Roleplaying Game? ;P

-TG

[jamesbarrett.livejournal.com]

truth to tell, I did not get past the characters classes part because I saw a lot of "special abilities" all over the place. Where am I supposed to create a Dragor in that mess? For that matter, Kyriela would be hating life. I didn't look close, but it sure seemed the wizard had become a sorcerer to me. -Frisk

[exatron.livejournal.com]

Drat. I liked the higher level concepts WotC had in mind for 4e, but it sounds like they botched the execution. The conspiracy theorist in me (I should be more selective with my diet) says this will be the excuse for making 4.5e in a couple years.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Their plan entails releasing a "supplemental" PHB/DMG/MM (called PHB II, PHB III, etc.) every year from now on, each one focusing on a different setting or whatnot. (So in 2009 look for the "Forgotten Realms PHB/DMG/MM", in 2010 look for the "Eberron PHB/DMG/MM", etc.) The idea is that they'll do "incremental upgrades" as they go, rather than a "4.5" edition later on.

Of course, after three or four of these, people will be wanting a "Rules Compendium" version...

-The Gneech

[exatron.livejournal.com]

So, they took the Epic Fail feat and each setting will suffer in turn along with the players. I like my settings mostly separate from my game rules.

Cobbling a system together from the good bits of 3e and the promising parts of 4e is sounding really attractive.