Space Fantasy That's Really Space _Fantasy_

[the_gneech]

Some recent posts over in worldmaking have left me pondering the idea of space fantasy that stops pretending that it isn't fantasy and instead takes that aspect and highlights it ... e.g., wizards in spaceships, planets ruled by demons, that kind of thing. The D&D spinoff Spelljammer is an example that comes to mind ... probably Star Wars works here too, although it often at least pretends to be SF. Lots of anime uses it.

I'm curious what people think and how they feel about it. Is it neat? Boring? Intriguing? Stupid?

Inquiring minds want to know!

-The Gneech

Comments

[jamesbarrett.livejournal.com]

I would at least then consider reading it, moreso than the ones that still try to be mostly SF. But then again, you know how I feel about fantasy. -Frisk

[kesh.livejournal.com]

I've been toying with the idea myself, as well. In addition to [i]Spelljammer[/i], there's a new setting published by Fantasy Flight Games called [i]Dragonstar[/i]. It's an incredibly good setting that blends sci-fi with D&D magic beautifully.

Sci-Fantasy (or space operas, depending on who you talk to) can be a great medium. For instance, it lets you get around that pesky e=mc² problem. ;) Just magic up a teleport system and you can jump from star to star! Not to mention other fun stuff.

[tygermoonfoxx.livejournal.com]

I always thought the Spelljammer concept was badly underused and could have made an interesting place to play and tell stories. Unfortunately for it, the rules were so complicated I think that's why most folk gave up on it. In terms of a world or story setting, I'd definitely read an author who was able to produce this sort of setting. Madwand and Changling by Roger Zelazny come to mind as good examples. I'd definitely enjoy seeing some things written that featured hybrids of the two genres such as technomages or chronomancers.

[kelloggs2066.livejournal.com]

Okay, to put it blundtly, for a serious story, I like Hard Science Fiction.

For me, personally, fantasy elements in science fiction tend to hit my suspension of disbelief below the belt.

Laser sword fights are silly and belong in Tiffarella.

It really makes me roll my eyes when things make no sense, not just from a scientific point of view, but a tactical one:

Here are a few scenes I would love to see in a Sci-Fantasy movie:

1)
Guy number one pulls out Light Saber.
Guy number two pulls out blaster.
Shoots guy with light saber dead.

2)
Superhot Mech pilot in giant, 100 foot tall SuperCombat Mech marches into town, towering over all the buildings.
Bunch of guys in an M-1 tank hidden behind a wall flip the
turret around and blast the Mech's head off.

From what I can see, a lot of science fantasy is contrived in such a way that despite all the technology that's all around them, the two antagonists somehow come down to either a sword
fight, or a fist fight.

If they're in Star Wars, they get out of their super fast space
fighters with hyper accurate targeting systems that can hit a Womp Rat at top speed, and they go at it with swords. Sure,
they're light sabres, but they still look and act exactly like
swords.

If they're in Giant Mechs, somehow, all the super laser and
missile weapons somehow are disabled or damaged and the two
antagonists go at it in the Mech equivalent of a fist fight
with giant robots punching each other.

The point being:
If I wanted to watch a sword fight, I'd watch Robin Hood.
If I wanted to see a fist fight, I'd watch boxing.

If I want to watch something that's science fiction, I'd like to
see some brains involved. In high tech science fiction, there's technology *all over the place*. Why then does it almost always come down to a contest of brute force. :-P

Ever see the old "Wild Wild West" TV Show? Every show, the bad guys had some super amazing weapon to defeat the good guys, weither it was a sonic laser, or a tank or *something* futuristic (and out of place for the 1880s) but some way, somehow, all the problems at the end of the show were solved by Robert Conrad getting into a fist fight. Nevermind all the James Bond gadgets lying around, nevermind the knife or the derringer that he always had, it was always a fist fight.

The original Star Trek got caught in that trap more than once.
Phasers and all kinds of things everywhere, but we're having
a fist fight with the bad guys. James Bond movies do a better
job that way. Oh, there's almost always a fist fight, but
often the fight is one by someone pulling a trick or a gadget
out that saves the day.

Very, very contrived.

Scott (Whoops, really got into a rant there, didn't I? Sorry 'bout that, Chief!) Kellogg

[kelloggs2066.livejournal.com]

PS.

This also covers Science Fiction stories involving slaves.
It blows my suspension of disbelief out of the water.

Stories about highly trained, highly educated slaves on board high tech star ships is just silly.

[kesh.livejournal.com]

True, that's a big problem. But then, that applies to any genre. When you ignore the main resource of the characters, and the brains of the audience, you've basically given up telling a story and jumped right to 'pandering'.

It may be more prominant in space fantasy, but there are exceptions.

Stories about highly trained, highly educated slaves on board high tech star ships is just silly.

Really? Howso? I mean, there are examples of highly trained, highly educated slaves in US history. True, most slaves were kept ignorant and untrained (and none were on a starship), but what's the real difference?

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

No apology needed ... I did ask for your opinion, after all, so I can hardly be annoyed that you gave it to me. :)

I'm intrigued by your concept of "a serious story" vs. "Tiffarella." :) I gather suspension of disbelief isn't a problem for you if you just toss the whole thing out the window.

I'd say you have valid points there, actually ... although the lightsaber/blaster thing is addressed in Star Wars, multiple times. :)

-The Gneech

[kelloggs2066.livejournal.com]

Imagine a well educated slave with access to your financial records and the internet.

Imagine a slave in charge of seeing if your space suit is properly maintained.

Imagine a slave with knowlege of chemistry and access to household chemicals.

Imagine a group of 3 slaves getting aboard a space passenger ship and flying it into the equivalent of the World Trade Center.

Imagine a slave engineer with access to a space ship's anti-matter power plant.

And, if you remove the slave from access to technology, then
they're useless. Why have 1000 slaves out working in a field
with picks and shovels when you can have a harvester or a bulldozer do the job faster for a lot less money?

Using slaves with high technology doesn't work. The Nazis learned that 60 years ago when the planes, rockets and missiles they built kept blowing up.

[kesh.livejournal.com]

Not entirely farfetched, still. Slaveowners in the South used educated slaves to do their bookkeeping in some instances. And I think if the Nazis had actually learned that lesson, there would've been less sabotage. ;)

You do make a good point, but I still don't think it's entirely unrealistic. Most slaves would still be menial labor, with the rare highly educated slave in a sensitive location. Such slaves would likely have additional 'incentives' to behave (family members threatened and such).

Slavery is certainly disgusting, but that doesn't mean it can't happen in a technical society.

[kelloggs2066.livejournal.com]

I'm intrigued by your concept of "a serious story" vs. "Tiffarella." :) I gather suspension of disbelief isn't a problem for you if you just toss the whole thing out the window.

Yup! Tiffarella isn't serious at all! It's just silly fun. It's no more serious than "Barbarella" or "Wallace and Gromit"! :)

As for the blaster vs lightsabre thing, you have to believe in magic for the light sabre guy to win. I'm afraid I could never swallow "The Force" very well. It was okay in the first movie when they didn't lean on it quite so hard, but after that one, practically the whole story hinged on Jedi mind tricks, throwing lightning bolts from the fingertips and impossible gymnastics.

Just *once* I'd like to see a guy who's not impossibly strong with the force come up against a guy with a blaster. Just *once*. Or how about just a plain old fashioned hand grenade? :)

Scott

[kesh.livejournal.com]

That reminds me of the live-action Star Wars television series idea I had... *sigh* Yet another thing I can never do in my lifetime. :P

[kelloggs2066.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I suppose we can't say it *can't* happen, but I'm afraid I'm at an utter loss to see an instance where it *can*.

Sure, you *could* have slaves doing menial work.

But, why would you do it when menial work is so much easier accomplished by machines. In WWII, the Chinese had tens of thousands of people out building runways for airplanes by hand.
If you've got a high tech society, why do that when you can use a bulldozer?

Menial labor in a factory? Nope. The Nazis tried it.

I guess the impetus of my argument comes from seeing so many
stories where the author puts slaves on star ships without thinking about what's going on. The author just wants to tell a story with slaves in it and doesn't think about the consequences or the security problems involved. The stories I've seen like that are very contrived from my point of view.

And, perhaps from my emotional point of view: I reject it. It's too far from my own world view that people would even *want* to own slaves. And any time someone comes up with an argument that says, "We have slaves that don't/can't revolt!" you may as well be sprinkling pixie dust on them and thinking happy thoughts so they can fly.

It doesn't help that the stories I've seen about slaves in science fiction are usually someone's fantasy of sadism. :-P

I'm sorry. But slavery just blows my suspension of disbelief out of the water. As soon as a character is identified as being a slave or a slave owner, I can no longer relate to that character at all, and perhaps more importantly, on an emotional level, I have *no desire* to relate to that character. And once I can't relate to the characters, I've lost all interest in the story.

No offense. It's just way too icky for me.

[level-head.livejournal.com]

As long as it's played for amusement, and with the proper tone of serious levity, so to speak, it could work for me.

There is an author of fantasy that I find to be a compelling creator of worlds: C. S. Friedman. She does an extraordinary job of combining science fiction with the fantasy element of telepathy and building an intricate, surprising universe out of it.

The surprise is even more delightful when followed by "Aha! And it makes perfect sense."

Examples: "In Conquest Born" and "Dark Sun Rising". These are big works, intricately plotted, with characters that you care about. Particularly "In Conquest Born" -- even the villian is so compelling that you hope for an ending in which the good guy and the bad guy BOTH come out all right.

In fact, there's a bit of that in "Dark Sun Rising" as well.

And while each main character is On A Quest(tm), the actual original goal gets lost somewhere, just like in real life.

She does it right, I think -- and it's definitely fantasy, complete with the occasional bit of swordfighting.

===|==============/ Level Head

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the references!

-TG

[elektron.livejournal.com]

I've tried my hand at sci-fi/fantasy, and in my never-to-be-completed rewrite, I think I'll drop most of the sci-fi part. I can't drop it completely, or then there'd be a big hole in the story.

It's just very hard to make it work. Magic and guns don't go together, let alone, say, the Enterprise.

Of course, the bane of sci-fi is Bad Science, which appears even in Star Trek (e.g. the one with the cloaking device and the Pegasus). Magic might explain it with less holes, but then there's the problem of divising a system that works.

And then, you still need to find an audience.