the_gneech: (Boromir battle)
[personal profile] the_gneech
Given that a cellphone is more amazing than any seeing stone, a single M16 way more devastating than any magic arrow, and the internet more full of forbidden lore than any dusty old tome, the would-be fantasist has to stop and think for a bit about what it is he has to offer that is of value. What is it that fantasy can give the modern reader, that watching the nightly news can't? In real life, we've got robots on Mars, fer cryin' out loud ... why does anybody want to read about boys on broomsticks?

One answer, is abstraction. Writing about "the military/industrial complex," to pick a cliche out of the air, is a tangled and thorny thing. On the other hand, the war machines of Isengard allow you to examine the underlying issues as an end to themselves, rather than any specific person. Circumstances change with every passing moment -- the human condition is more or less a constant. Like Tolkien's discussion of "applicability," when you write a story that is about nobody, it becomes about everybody.

Another is the strange yin/yang combination of complete control, and complete freedom. If I write a story about cellphones, M16s, and robots on Mars, I need to have a pretty firm idea of how those work, and I'm limited, within the range of reasonable dramatic license, by what they can and can't do. Furthermore, Conan would have a hard time carving himself a kingdom today, in our world of wrangling superpowers, power blocs, and U.N. sanctions. Individual heroism on a grand scale in unconvincing in the context of today ... but the fantasist can build a world where it makes sense, if that's where he wants his story to go.

Really, that's fantasy's big strength I think: freedom. In real life, we have to put up with shit. Pointy-haired bosses, avoiding trouble, a world that does what it will regardless of how you feel about it ... this is a fantasist's appointed foe. To take advantage of the medium, he must create larger-than-life heroes who do larger-than-life things. Not just tossing lightning bolts at his foes, but throwing down the pointy-haired boss, wading hip-deep into trouble and kicking its butt, and making the world bend to his will instead of the other way around.

Hmm. :) I'll have to ponder this!

-The Gneech

Date: 2004-01-07 07:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] koogrr.livejournal.com
I don't know, he took California!

Date: 2004-01-07 07:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] camstone.livejournal.com
I see management training classes in your future!
*gets out the pointy palmade and gives you a pointy new hairdo*

And yet, where did the laser come from... the phaser, and soon... transporter beams? Imagination and the mind's eye. Yes, reality grounds expectations, but fatasy and imagination breaks the bonds and allows us to consider the "What if?"s that Tom Ridge would wrap up in plastic and duct tape.

It's why I love Einstein's quote, which goes:
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."

Did he mean that knowledge was worthless? Of course not, but it does mean that an active imagination takes the gained knowledge further than it could have gotten on it's own.

Hmmm... time for some mischeif I think.

Date: 2004-01-07 08:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vakkotaur.livejournal.com

Well, the laser was invented in the late 1950s or early 1960s, before Trek's phaser - Trek used 'phaser' specificaly to avoid saying 'laser'. One could argue there some ray-gun inspiration, however. It's also interesting to note what fiction/fantasy can miss. While many things are versions of the fantastic (magic mirror - television) others seem to be missing. Was there any idea of recorded sound before Edison invented it - after an accident suggested the device? Reality and Fantasy both augment, and are augmented by, Imagination.

Date: 2004-01-07 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kenthar.livejournal.com
If someone who knows little to nothing about Star Trek may speak up?

I seem to remember in this one episode, probably Next Gen or Voyager, they saw this other ship, scanned it, and were like:
"They have lasers for weapons..."
"What? Those are like, OLD, man!"
"Yeah"

Ohhhhh, they were trapped in a time loop, okay, that'd explain it.

Speaking of technology...

Date: 2004-01-07 11:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] torakiyoshi.livejournal.com
*Looks at your avatar*

Camstone, have you learned to stop worrying and love the bomb or something?

-=TK, HEIL! *Forces his arm down*

Re: Speaking of technology...

Date: 2004-01-07 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-gneech.livejournal.com
Camstone loved the bomb to begin with. ;)

-TG

Re: Speaking of technology...

Date: 2004-01-07 01:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] torakiyoshi.livejournal.com
Is it *HEIL!* ze bomb, or doss hee like my *HEIL!* idea off leefink en unterkround bunkerss *HEIL!*?

-=TK Strangelove

Date: 2004-01-07 08:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] satyrblade.livejournal.com
Dude, have you read "Deliria: Faerie Tales for a New Millennium" yet? I know you bought a copy. It tackles this subject head-on.

What happens when the world is more magical than traditional magic? The traditionally magical beings get curious... and scared... and angry... and sometimes they transform into something ever stranger than before...

Date: 2004-01-07 08:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-gneech.livejournal.com
Well, I'm talking about from the POV of a writer trying to reach an audience, not that of Mopsy the Pooka wandering around the suburbs. :)

-TG

Date: 2004-01-07 11:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] torakiyoshi.livejournal.com
Send in MP's coroporate pirates for a hostile takeover!!!

-=TK

Date: 2004-01-07 12:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kelloggs2066.livejournal.com
I can't say I completely disagree, but I don't entirely agree either.

Take a look at Tom Clancy's books.

Jack Ryan goes from College Professor to CIA Analyst, to Head of the CIA. In later books, doesn't he become President?

By no means have I read all of his books, but I do see that in those I've read, he ends up destroying monstrously huge foes.

In Red Storm Rising, the Soviet Union, while not wiped out, is badly beaten and pacified.

In Hunt For Red October, the Soviet Navy is left with so many of it's secrets exposed that it will never be a threat again.

Kardinal of the Kremlin, a Soviet "Star Wars" program is smashed.

In Patriot Games, the IRA is destroyed.

In Sum of All Fears, the Islamic Terrorists get destroyed.

All of them, titanic tasks worthy of larger than life heroes.
And the books Do Indeed Sell.

Of course Tom Clancy does ENORMOUS research for his books, that
in Fantasy writing, an author can just *make up* so it's harder.

Truth be told, I *try* to write in a similar way myself. My own characters are trying to tackle large things, Building a "Beanstalk" surface to orbit tower. Introducing Lioness Liberation into traditional African Lion culture. Building a base on the moon. Saving passengers from a downed spacecraft.

Maybe they're not as imaginary as slaying a dragon. But building things and saving people is often not percieved as exciting as destroying things and killing people.

It may be an uphill battle, but one I think is worth fighting.

Scott

Date: 2004-01-07 01:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-gneech.livejournal.com
Introducing lioness liberation is completely imaginary. :) Furry is fantasy too.

-TG

Date: 2004-01-07 01:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kelloggs2066.livejournal.com
That is true, but my arguement still holds for Tom Clancy.

Also, I'm afraid I tend to think that you're a little off in your estimation as to why Fantasy has an appeal over reality based books.

The appeal is not just the gadgets.

It's that it's just not *reality*.

Things are not as fun when they get *too* real.

For example: A while ago, I was reading a series of stories about a group of people sneaking around, ducking the police, the FBI and the government and doing all sorts of sneaky type stuff.
Then some of them turned out to be spies who planned to blow up
the Space Shuttle. So there was a lot of sneaking around and
espionage and terrorism looming in the story while the good guys
tried to stop them.

Then along came the very real September 11th terrorist attacks.
Suddenly, the story lost all it's appeal to me. It was just too
real. I no longer wanted to read about ways to slip past customs
inspectors with super technology. I no longer wanted to read
stories that were, in part, from the sabateur's point of view.

When you're a special magic boy with a magic broom and a wand,
you don't have to worry about your trigonometry homework. You
don't have to worry about the girl with glasses who made fun of
you during lunchtime. It's all about a magical world where the
cares of this one don't interfere. While the characters may get
all worked up about Potions Class, it's not like that's going to
be a very real worry in your very real life.

The appeal is not the imaginary gadgets involved.

The appeal is the imaginary *life* that's involved.

Date: 2004-01-07 01:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] torakiyoshi.livejournal.com
Gaaah! Spoilers!!! *Cringe*

I thought about putting this up earlier, but I'll do it now to both counter and reinforce Scott's points.

[livejournal.com profile] fiacaid wrote this to me in an email recently:

I was thinking the other day (I know, dangerous passtime),
and I'm pretty certain I've found the reason why I (and most
everyone I know) enjoys David Weber's Honor Harrington
series so much:

Its the classic heroic epic.

Not only that, its the heroic epic in a setting we can
directly relate to in a way we cannot relate to, say, the
Arthurian legends. Ok, the setting is in many ways even
more fantastical than stories involving magic, dragons,
etc., yet in our world today its a setting we can relate to
and put ourselves in. Arthur, Robin Hood, Vercingetorix,
and the like make for incredible tales, but its a world of
the past and leads to thoughts of what-might-have-been
rather than what-yet-might-be.


So at the same time that one must do more research, it is because the audience relates much more to the setting. Our ideas of Medieval Europe are highly romanticized, thanks to the 13th Century writers who produced the legends around the 4th Century hero: Keng Arthoure. This is reinforced by the sogenannte "Dark Ages" problem, that so few people were literate to describe their times in detail. It is much more interesting to add in Merlins, Saurons, Dragons/Wyrms, etc. because the Medieval Era was, in fact, incredibly mundane (unless you were at war).

So while it is harder to write something more modern, or even futuristic, it's because we-the-readers have a sharper idea of what goes on, so we force you to stay more on your toes. Of course, there's something to be said for Weber, too: no one has any idea how the Impeller/Warshaski drives are projected, only that it uses nodes on either end of the ship and involves artificial gravity fields and very specific shapes.

But what can you do? If the public demands fantasy or science fiction, authors must either satisfy or come up with something better!

-=TK

Date: 2004-01-07 09:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kenthar.livejournal.com
The answer, as usual, is "dragons."

You can read about drag0wns in fantasy books; rarely hear about an eastern dragon in the news.

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