I Respectfully Disagree

[the_gneech]

There's a video being floated around my friends list that says, in a nutshell, "All you weird fags prancing around the pride parades are making all us NORMAL gay people look bad!"

I am not surprised to hear this drek; it's been around for a long time.

I am surprised at so many people I know and otherwise generally respect standing up and applauding.

So here's a newsflash:

1. Most people are not gay; therefore by definition being gay is not "normal," it is an unusual characteristic in a person. Personally, I don't think being "normal" is all that and a bag of chips anyway. (Having red hair is not "normal" but some of us do it happily.)
   
   
2. People who hate gays hate "normal" gays just as much as they hate flaming queens.
   
   
3. Since so many of the people passing this around are in the furry community, let me ask you this: How would you feel if you heard somebody say "All you weird fursuiters are making all us NORMAL furries look bad!"?
   
   
4. If you want tolerance, you've got to tolerate others yourself. This is the fundamental betrayal of this "you weirdos are making me look bad" attitude. By denouncing the flaming queers, you have become the same as those people denouncing you. Do you really want to be part of that? In my opinion, disdain (or outright hatred in some cases) looks a lot worse than wearing over-the-top bondage gear or dressing in drag.

I don't want to call out specific people on this, because I've seen it in a lot of places and would probably miss somebody. But frankly, I'm disappointed.

-The Gneech

Comments

[scixual.livejournal.com]

Amen.

[bucky-boy.livejournal.com]

>People who hate gays hate "normal" gays just as much as they hate flaming queens.<

I don't know if I agree with you on this one do to some of the recent events that have been happening around this area.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Obviously, it's a very broad generalization; but every person I've met who hates gays, is prone to saying things like "That guy's a fag? Weird, he seemed to NORMAL! Oh well, go get the bat..."

"Seeming normal" certainly makes you a less obvious target, but once your cover is blown, they'll still take their shot.

-The Gneech

[grifter-t-wolf.livejournal.com]

I agree people should tolerate others or keep their muzzles shut on topics of things that are not in their taste. I for one have met a couple of drag queens, seen a couple on stage, though it's not my particular interest I still have fun with their routines and respect their lifestyles. Personally 'Normal' to 'Flamboyant' should fall into the same spectrum and shouldn't be labeled myself >^-^< But sadly not everyone thinks along those lines :(

[bauske.livejournal.com]

You can blame me if you like. I do not care. I'm sorry to have to say that, but it's what I feel.

It's not that I condemn these people for what they do. If someone wants to have kinks and fetishes, by all means they're allowed to that. No one can stop them. But it's when they flaunt these in the street or in public places where anyone can watch and see that I have a problem with it. If it's in the bedroom, that's fine. I'm not saying that I want to shove that stuff out of existence, but I am saying that these people shouldn't shove their fetishes into the face of others. Not everyone shares their same likes.

It's disrespectful and rude. This isn't something minor like wearing a hat in a public building. It's flaunting around like a primative being who seems to portray that their only interest in life is sex and more sex, and honestly, that's quite disgusting to others. You can't compare this with fursuiting. Sure there are people who associate sex and fursuiting, but very rarely do you see an entire parade of people in fursuits acting in sexual or otherwise shocking and disgusting manners.

This isn't about trying to tell people to stop what they enjoy. It's about asking people to have some respect for others and maybe try to set a good example as a human being.

And just for the record, I have no problem with drag queens. I've seen and known some very impressive and awesome people that were drag queens or otherwise just dressed in drag. Personally, if it's tastefully and well done, I think it can be incredibly cool. But I just don't like seeing people dancing in the street in leather thongs and bondage. Call me crazy.

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

Just because it's "disgusting" dosen't mean it's wrong.

Everyone has the basic human rights. Even those that you find morally reprehensible. We're -ALL- fighting for those rights, and if they're only bestowed by those who can act 'normal', then the battle wasn't actually won, only compromised.

I agree with you that respect needs to be shown in daily life. There is a time and a place for everything; but sometimes that timeand place should be in a public forum where it can remind non-participants that it exists and those who choose such must be treated with the same basic dignity as any other human being.

Parades have become that forum.. that one particular time and place where people can get out and be what they are without fear. It's the one time and place where such things should be dragged into the open. Sex occurs; there's no denying it.

To use a personal example: A couple weeks back, my mother (who's known I was a furry for quite a while) saw the CSI episode. She point-blank asked me if furry cons were orgys. I pointed out to her that such things do happen, but they're not the reason we do the things we do. Fursuit sex is a natural expression of something that one enjoies being taken into the natural realm of sex. It's going to happen; the media just focused on that as if it were the only thing.

At the end of the day, she understands that yes, some fursuiters have sex in fursuit. No, not everyone does. The point of the event is to enjoy the perfomance and social aspect. what everyone else does otherwise, is their own business.

Had I vhemently denied such, she would have known I was lying. She would have then assumed the worst. In her mind, everyone in an animal costume would have, from that point on, been a sexual pervert out to rub their soooge-stained costumes on children.

because I was open with her about the secual aspect... even when it was very uncomfortable, she has a much better and more realistic understanding of our community. Sex happens, but it's not why we're here. And we're all better for that. :)

[delphinios.livejournal.com]

Such sentiments as the ones shown in that video never set right with me. Perhaps I'm strange, but I get a thrill in seeing someone comfortable enough with themselves to express such things openly.

Now, I'm a very straight-acting person and went two years in my last job before anyone figured out that I wasn't 'normal', but frankly people need to be shook up. They need to see 'freaks' and realize that their view of the world isn't the only one that exists. That was the entire point of the "Gay Pride Parades", to be a very obvious example of how there are other perspectives and those that think differently are still people, too.

"A house divided against itself, cannot stand." is the old adage, and in this case it rings true. We're all working for the same goals; why can't people stop criticizing others that are on the same side, and instead focus on the issues that need attention? So what if someone dosen't fight the same way as you or in a way you disagree with.. they're -on your side-.

Drag Queens (for example), while initially embarassing, are important to our movement. Leathermen, Petplayers, Fetishers are all a perfect example of those that need the support of the large community we've built. Hell, this community was *founded* on them. While 'keep it in your bedroom' is definately the rule for the most part, sometimes it's important to remind people that such deviances *exist* and visibally so. Otherwise, we're back to the Puritan Nation where you can't sell Dildos and sexuallity is illegal. I'd prefer such reminders happen once a year in a giant spectacle, then be quashed under the fear of public reprisal as they would normally.

Just because the religious right uses them against us, dosen't mean they're wrong. We've already hit bottom, we've already been killed many times in history for our lifestyle. What is worse then that? For every preacher that stands up and denounces us faggots, there will be one person in the audience that has to come out to their family. And that's where our progress comes from... being able to support that person through the difficult time until their family finally realises that their child hasn't actually died and that perhaps the guy behind the pulpit was wrong.

Anyways, I'm tired and shouldn't be writing while exhausted. But Thank you for posting this. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[kylet.livejournal.com]

****While 'keep it in your bedroom' is definately the rule for the most part, sometimes it's important to remind people that such deviances *exist* and visibally so. Otherwise, we're back to the Puritan Nation where you can't sell Dildos and sexuallity is illegal.****

So....why aren't there big sex parades of heterosexuals prominently displaying their fetishes?

[klepsydra.livejournal.com]

As a dear friend of mine is wont to put it:

"Every day is Straight Pride Day."

[ziabandito555.livejournal.com]

If that were true you'd think straight people would be a lot more comfortable with themsleves and be a lot more well adjusted when it comes to sex...

[darkwingpsycho.livejournal.com]

*applauds YOU* Well said. I would feel much the same way.

[fferret.livejournal.com]

(*grins*) Thank you, Gneech. Valid points not often raised enough with any self-identifying group! Now I can't wait to game with you guys!

[wynther-knight.livejournal.com]

Each and everyone of us has the right to express ourselves and voice out our own opinions... as long as we do not offend others.

The first one is kinda easy, the next phrase isn't. The only time we'll ever know if we do offened somebody is that after we say/do what we want to say/do (which is usually too late...).


"Upto this day, human beings still amaze, confuse and amuse me" - Wynther Knight

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Each and everyone of us has the right to express ourselves and voice out our own opinions... as long as we do not offend others.

The problem is, because so many people are prone to taking offense at a difference of opinion, it's an inherently contradictory statement.

-The Gneech

[kylet.livejournal.com]

I can't speak specifically about the video since my speakers are STILL kaput and I didn't even know there was commentary until I read about it.
The reason I support this is not necessarily a "you're making us look" bad issue as much as the progress issue (which I'm guessing was the point based on the video title). You can't ask for equality (ie marriage rights) if you're not going to ACT equal. There are and have been other groups fighting for their rights--60's African-American civil right activitsm and the current immigration rights controversy come to mind--and they can get their points across while still staying within the boundaries of good taste.

If you desire to be free to act however you like in public, fine. You're welcome to it, honestly. But then don't turn around and complain that you're not respected by the general population. It's going to end up being one or the other. As long as the people who, um, flaunt themselves in these parades know they're in an uphill battle for equal rights, that's fine. I'm sure not all of them expect to make the public more accepting, and many are happy being perpetually counterculture and unique. More power to them.

It's a matter of acting consistently with your goals; that's my beef here.

[darkwingpsycho.livejournal.com]

That's a good point, too.

[sirfox.livejournal.com]

I find myself agreeing with it to a point. Odd costumes and face paint? No problem, i've seen similar in any mardi gras parade. From the still image as the video loaded, that's what i thought it was to start with. As a quick bullshit check with myself, i found myself mentally switching gay for straight couples performing some of the antics in the video. I'd have been just as annoyed were it a straight couple trying to give each other an anal hicky out on the street, instead of the gay couple featured in one scene. It's not a gay or straight or furry thing... It's just exhibitionism, bad taste, and poor judgement.

It's all a matter of degree. Being strange and wierd, sure. go for it. Act flamboyant? Your choice. Crossdress? just shave your legs, the nylons go on easier that way. Wear a fursuit? why not. Public nudity and lewdness and shoving that in the face of unsuspecting people? no. I don't care if it's a straight, gay, furry, or KLINGON couple, i don't want to see them wearing a bondage harness and making out in the hotel lobby, and i LIKE bondage. It's just inconsiderate.

[ceruleanst.livejournal.com]

The problem with it is that it conflates the "offenses." You can tell, watching the video, that we're expected to be just as disgusted by a few odd costumes as we are by a public sex act. We're supposed to think that wearing a tacky dress is the same as a public sex act.

I've been hearing from more and more butch gay men looking for excuses to bash trannies. They think that they can endear themselves to "the public" by saying "Look, we hate them too! Look how revolting they are. We can hate them together and be pals." This never, ever works. People have been playing this tune in furry fandom for, what, a decade? All it got us was exactly the public image everyone was so afraid of.

[ziabandito555.livejournal.com]

meh I'm just a prude and there are no two ways about it... *foozles and gives ya a cookie... scampers away!*

[ramalion.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming you're talking about this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0sNTz18jMg

I can agree with the video on one SMALL point. Walking in the parade mostly naked doing simulated sex acts is probably not good.

However, the assertion that people hate gays because of people cross dressing or wearing leather thongs in parades is stupid. It doesn't matter if the whole parade was civic or church groups, they would still find a reason to hate us. These people have hated gays before there were pride parades and they will hate us after pride parades go away.

Saying they hate us because of people doing 'stupid' stuff at parades is like me saying I hate anyone who drinks because there's a small segment that become idiots when they drink too much.

The real reason that we don't have equal rights in this country is because a powerful segment of our population uses a book of ledgends as basis to make public policy. It's as simple as that...

[dermotmacflann.livejournal.com]

I think the best-serving goals of gay rights should be (1) liberty (2) equality (3) dignity. Basically, we are all ordinary people, we're just men who only date men and women who only day women. If we want society to give us the equality to be judged fairly by the same gender-blind standards as everyone else, then we need to give our neighbors as much respect as we want them to give us.

There are still so many places where gay people keep a low profile just so as not to get lynched. And when I see a parade with leather harnesses and balloon penises, it is not only a complete disconnect with my own goals in life, but I cringe at how ordinary uninformed people (especially in in the places I mentioned) are making conscious or subconscious judgments of what the gay rights movement represents. And if they are given the message that gay people seek more priveleges for themselves than straight people seek for themselves, then the gay rights movement becomes a very threatening thing to them.

Sometimes it is important to be able to exercise ones own free identity in public without shame. But it's appropriate to give a message that we care about our neighbors and about the community we live in (at least enough to cooperate with it as a whole), and that we aren't trying to destroy it, nor do we want to live under grievous oppression and discrimination. On the contrary, we should remind people of the wisdom of equal rights and a gender-blind civil society. If someone does nothing but quote popular interpretations of scripture and refuse to budge, then it is ultimately their problem, not ours. However, if that problem of their translates into oppression against ourselves, we can still seek channels through steady education, communication, and the courts if all else fails, and revolt as a last resort.

Anyway, I've had this discussion with others before, and it's been pointed out to me that the annual Carnaval festivities in Rio de Janeiro's Sambadromó are probably the closest thing there is to a "straight pride" parade. If you can tolerate Carnaval parades, then the tolerant thing to do would be to tolerate gay parades up to and including an equal level of flamboyance. It's about having an equal standard.

[level-head.livejournal.com]

I think the best-serving goals of gay rights should be (1) liberty (2) equality (3) dignity. Basically, we are all ordinary people, we're just men who only date men and women who only day women. If we want society to give us the equality to be judged fairly by the same gender-blind standards as everyone else, then we need to give our neighbors as much respect as we want them to give us.

Very well said. The narrator was making this same general statement. The message was not that some people are weird and he was normal -- as he put it, "I've got my own kinks" -- it was the decisions made to make these kinks into public behaviors.

But he does this clumsily in places. At one point he asks rhetorically, "Are you proud of yourselves?" I expect that the answer would be a resounding "yes!" That wasn't the right question to ask. Their goals are different from yours, I think.

There are still so many places where gay people keep a low profile just so as not to get lynched.

It seems to me that there are few indeed in the US, though it's still too common elsewhere. Even the famous Matthew Shepard case was not quite the clear-cut "gay bashing" that it was portrayed as in the media.

An anecdotal bit, but of personal interest to me: I live in a small, very conservative community, and a local rather square Republican just put up a gay couple for the the local Entrepreneurs of the Year award. They won. And they made it clear, in a pleasant fashion, that they were gay -- this was no big deal, and they were applauded and cheered for their accomplishments. I have the video of this event, as a commemoration. ];-)

The Rio Carnival, like the murder of people for their sexual orientation, is something that happens outside of the US. We tend toward moderation here -- and it is that tendency that the paraders are pushing so hard against.

But the complaint about the parade business was not really about "gays" at all, though even the narrator seemed to focus on that word. It was about very poor judgment in very public behavior, if the goal is really to achieve liberty, equality, and dignity in society.

===|==============/ Level Head

[dennisthetiger.livejournal.com]

To a point, I kind of agree - but the video is pretty much propaganda, the likes of which can easily be found on Usenet alt.*. Yeah, the depiction of analingus is a bit over the top for a public display, you can't deny that, but I'm thinking you're pretty much right otherwise.

As for me, I tend to ignore the "all furries are pervs/fags/bestiophiles/etc" camp. It's bothersome, but I try to ignore them.

[spikedpunch.livejournal.com]

Actually yes, as a weird fursuiter myself, I would have to say that people like me may make other fursuiters look bad. A wolf in a leather harness... yeah, that really helps with the public image, no?

[lukebacca.livejournal.com]

You win the internet.

[susandeer.livejournal.com]

What the hell kinda prize is THAT?! *snicker!*

[stargazer.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. I agree completely.

[jadedfox.livejournal.com]

I haven't propigated the video but honestly I think the video's intent (while hammered into the ground, and going a little too far on some points) is it's NOT cool to play "Squick the norms" THAT sort of crap is what hurts us. I have no problem with people being flamboyant, but if your whole point is try try and make others twitch and get disgusted or upset by you, you aren't helping us, you are hurting us. I say this as a bi guy, and a member of several fandoms that people deem outside the norm. When subgroups stamp out the "Squick the Norms" people, they are more accepted, I've seen this numerous times. Now it doesn't take AWAY from the things that makes us, us, or limit our behavior, it's simply a matter of PUBLIC decorum. Watch how you act and think, how will these people react, it's standard PR that everyone deals with when you attend an public event for a particular group, you represent that group to everyone outside the group that witnesses it. What sort of image do you wish to leave in their minds for your group?

Now, when you are at a private event, go nuts and have fun, that's YOUR time to enjoy yourself.

Does this make sense?

[klepsydra.livejournal.com]

Do you really think that the people who sneer at gays, furs, goths etc. would stop sneering if those groups only acted that way at private events?

[bigtig.livejournal.com]

Since so many of the people passing this around are in the furry community, let me ask you this: How would you feel if you heard somebody say "All you weird fursuiters are making all us NORMAL furries look bad!"?

A lot of that depends on the context of "weird." Having run a convention or two I can tell you that it always is a pain that there is a group of folks who look upon themselves to cheerfully present themselves as "out" with their kinks and as representative of the fandom at large, just as in the greater gay community.

Quite essentially there are folks who will happily seek out the cameras and yiff in front of them, be it in fursuit, or bondage, or diapers, or whatnot. And this is a constant media headache for the conventions.

In the other context of "weird," that is, blanketing fursuiters in general, doesn't match this film. The guy goes out of his way several times to highlight that he's not talking about everyone in a pride parade or every gay. He's specifically taking about the folks who are taking their full blown sexual kinks in public.

There are two arguments presented, one of general tact, and another of public opinion.

On the tact argument, kinks are fine, though there are some things that
just don't need to be out in public. I don't wear the features of my straight intercourse on my sleeve at work, no more than I do that I'm a macrophile furry. I don't hide anything, it's just not something I need to go greeting my coworkers with. "HI! I'm in IT and run macrophile.com because I like that stuff!" Some things aren't approrpiate. I really really wish some furries would get this.

The second argument, the political one, is a tougher pill to swallow. But it's true. The media in general will leap on the pride parade for the edgier story. I remember the parade they did in Baltimore a year or two ago. Huge supporting parade. One small leather float. Guess what picture made the paper? Guys prancing in thongs.

It's not a new struggle in that respect either. In the 50's and 60's a lot of black leaders turned against some folks like Louis Armstrong who were seen as performing as the old-time dandys and smiley-black-guys. In times when you are under the media lens, presenting yourself as a caricture can be really detrimental to your cause.

Does that make it right? I dunno. Louis Armstrong eventually gained credeential back by coming out strongly against Ike and backing out of goodwill tours because he couldn't support a country that wouldn't let his brothers and sisters have equal rights.

Appropriate action and tolerance are two completely different things. I, like most of America, have no trouble toleratring heterosexuality. And having sex in my bedroom at home is perfectly fine. Having sex in the middle of the playground of a public school, however, is not. It's an extreme example, but it makes the point. Reguardless of your orientation, or whatever, there are standards of appropriate actions.

And if you're trying to make a political point about having equal rights, being busy violating those standards removes your credibility.

[bauske.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

[susandeer.livejournal.com]

First off, I'm cool with you disagreeing. That's your choice dude.

Now tell me this: What exactly is it in that video that's even remotely helping the GBLT public image?

Nothing wrong with being different, but tolerance works both ways. If you present yourself as being Way Outside the Mainstream, it should come as no complete surprise when the reaction from others is to treat you that way.

[klepsydra.livejournal.com]

Why is it impossible to be way outside the mainstream and yet be treated with respect?

Freaking the Mundanes

[http://users.livejournal.com/krin_o_o_/]

I haven't seen the video in question yet. Home system isn't cooperating. But, I think I can comment on the general topic since the contents of the video have been spelled out ad-nausium elsewhere.

I think the entire issue revolves around "tact", just as BigTig said.

If you go out to "Freak the Mundanes" (as we used to say in the SCA) and get a reaction from them, then you have absolutely positively no place to stand and yell "foul" when they do react.

And they will react. Almost always negatively.

Nobody likes being "freaked", or embarrassed, or disrespected, or insulted. It doesn't matter if you are gay and a straight is condemning you as being "abnormal", if you're straight and being condemned as a "breeder", or if you're furry and being called a "skunk f***er".

If you are getting in peoples faces and forcing a reaction, if you are attacking their own self images, if you are attacking their way of life, or if you're deliberately trying to force anything upon them, then you can expect them to attack back, in force, with vengence.

It doesn't matter which direction the equation is read or who does the application of force. "Freaking the Mundanes" does as much damage as "Enforcing Family Values" to the common good and wellbeing of the entire society at large.

- Krin

Re: Freaking the Mundanes

[fferret.livejournal.com]

I always took 'Freaking the Mundanes' (I started in SF fandom in 1976, btw,) to involve an element of fun and humor for all parties involved, so that it became a happy memory.

[wardy.livejournal.com]

My take on this is: "Ok you're gay, fine. But why in the fuck do you have to make such a bloody song and dance about it?"

I'm not homophobic, nor am I bigoted or prejudiced. I accept that people think differently to me and whilst I might not share their kinks/fetishes/whatever it doesn't really affect how I see them as a person (unless they turn out to a peadophile or something).

I am straight, some people know this, some don't. I've never felt the need to broadcast it by going on a straight pride parade or wearing "I love boobs and fanny!" T-Shirts. I can't understand why any gay man or woman would want to do the same either. If they are comfortable with their sexuality then that's great! Fair play, says I!

Whenever I see or hear about pride parades I just ask, "Why?". Even if it were something completely different people were being proud about, like being a dwarf, if they were to go on Vertically Challenged Pride Marches, I'd be asking the same question. You just KNOW that the media will present you in the worst possible way and then you will be the first to whinge about it.

I think the point the guy is trying to make is that, when he tells someone he's gay, they immediately think he's a studded-leather wearing, flaming queen with a penchant for prancing around like an extra from the video to I Want to Break Free. And people will think that as that's what they have been led to belive gay people are like.

It's a sorry state of affairs but the people who go on pride parades, in my opinion, are not doing themselves or other gay folk any favours.

Again, don't get me wrong. A person tells me they're gay/lesbian and it doesn't bother me. If they're walking down the street wearing nothing but a pair of panties and waving a rainbow flag whilst grasping the arse of another, similarly clad individual then I might just be a little unsettled and I probably wouldnt want to know them. Not becuase they are gay but beacuse of what they are doing!

I guess what I am saying is, I respect people for having the guts to show the world what they are but when they do it in a way they know is going to rub people up the wrong way then they should accept the consequences.

Wardy

[scixual.livejournal.com]

They're not doing it for

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They're not doing it <i>for<M/i> you.

[triggur.livejournal.com]

Here's the problem.

In a perfect world, the leather daddies and bikini boys and drag queens could all shake their asses in public and mainstream America would wisely realize that they are a very small portion of the GLBT population, and they'd still happily vote in all kinds of legislation granting us equal rights on every level.

This, however, is not a perfect world. I've been involved in the gay rights battle for a number of years and I've encountered many many moderate people who-- as the video said-- would be a lot more sympathetic if they didn't have pride parade behavior stuck in their heads as the representation of what we're all like. They literally think we all want to do all these things, and they don't understand that this is a small segment of the population.

And they vote against us in the next gay rights initiative. I've seen it happen, over and over again.

So that's the bottom line: This is an imperfect world, and we have to make comprimises.

Now it's time to ask yourself: Which is more important to you... that you be able to supply your same-sex partner with shared health insurance, or that you be allowed to lick his ass in public?

Choose carefully. You only get one.

[kylet.livejournal.com]

One of the best points yet, IMHO. :::thumbs-up:::

[makovette.livejournal.com]

Overtly sexulized public displays do Not belong in any parade, gay, straight or martian. The extreme stuff in the Pride Parades is Not Helping the cause.

Behaving with a modicum of class and decorum will pay back many times the effort expended regardless of the context.

So I pretty much agree with the video's primary points. Sorry to dissapoint...

Mako