Some Clarification Here...
Apr. 14th, 2006 02:04 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
the_gneechRegarding the "pride vs. progress" video, some salient points...
Anybody who knows me can probably guess that I'm not exactly a fan of overtly sexual behavior in public. I'm not advocating that outrageous displays are a good idea in pride parades or anywhere else; they're not my cup of tea by a long shot. However, despite the video's histrionics on this point, if you turn the picture off and listen to what the guy says, that's not what he's upset about.
He comes right out and says that the "outrageous" elements in pride parades directly cause homophobia and gay bashing. In other words, in his opinion, the outrageous sexual behavior of "Party A" is directly responsible for the intolerant and violent behavior of "Party B."
At the risk of an instance of Godwin's Law, this is like saying, "If certain Jews hadn't been (whatever it was that Jews were supposed to have done), the Nazis wouldn't have been able to persecute them," thus shifting the blame conveniently off of the Nazis (who have the socially-dominant position) to the persecuted Jews (who do not).
The video ranter also claims that he and other "normal" gays have made "all the progress in gay rights" and that the outrageous people in pride parades are undermining all that good work. Frankly, I think this is bunk. The "out there" element, from Oscar Wilde to the Stonewall riots to the raging queens on TV like Mr. Humphries, has largely been what finally made gay rights a "non-taboo" subject -- there's a reason Wilde referred to homosexuality as "the love that dare not speak its name." Both ends of the spectrum are necessary and will continue to be so.
Finally, this guy can point at the extreme fringe and shriek, "WE'RE NOT WITH THEM!!!" all he wants, but it's not going to do him any good. The thing he's so upset about, the association in the public mind of "normal" him with the "out-there" others, is unavoidable. To most straight people, gays --all gays-- will always be fundamentally alien, in the same way that most men and women often each other as fundamentally alien. From that mindset, the normal gay and the out-there gay, no matter how different they may be, on a basic level are more like each other than either one is like the straight.
This is a fundamental psychological phenomenon, and he's going to have to come to terms with it. Despite what the ranter thinks, that doesn't make the "out-there" people responsible for his own feelings of isolation.
I agree that dancing around with dildos in public doesn't do the gay community any favors -- but like it or not, Mr. Ranter, you're stuck in the gay ghetto with them and always will be and are going to have to learn to love 'em. If you want them to stop behaving in ways that make you cringe, you're going to have to win them over to your own set of tastes and values, and you're never going to do that by bashing them over their metaphorical heads.
-The Gneech
Anybody who knows me can probably guess that I'm not exactly a fan of overtly sexual behavior in public. I'm not advocating that outrageous displays are a good idea in pride parades or anywhere else; they're not my cup of tea by a long shot. However, despite the video's histrionics on this point, if you turn the picture off and listen to what the guy says, that's not what he's upset about.
He comes right out and says that the "outrageous" elements in pride parades directly cause homophobia and gay bashing. In other words, in his opinion, the outrageous sexual behavior of "Party A" is directly responsible for the intolerant and violent behavior of "Party B."
At the risk of an instance of Godwin's Law, this is like saying, "If certain Jews hadn't been (whatever it was that Jews were supposed to have done), the Nazis wouldn't have been able to persecute them," thus shifting the blame conveniently off of the Nazis (who have the socially-dominant position) to the persecuted Jews (who do not).
The video ranter also claims that he and other "normal" gays have made "all the progress in gay rights" and that the outrageous people in pride parades are undermining all that good work. Frankly, I think this is bunk. The "out there" element, from Oscar Wilde to the Stonewall riots to the raging queens on TV like Mr. Humphries, has largely been what finally made gay rights a "non-taboo" subject -- there's a reason Wilde referred to homosexuality as "the love that dare not speak its name." Both ends of the spectrum are necessary and will continue to be so.
Finally, this guy can point at the extreme fringe and shriek, "WE'RE NOT WITH THEM!!!" all he wants, but it's not going to do him any good. The thing he's so upset about, the association in the public mind of "normal" him with the "out-there" others, is unavoidable. To most straight people, gays --all gays-- will always be fundamentally alien, in the same way that most men and women often each other as fundamentally alien. From that mindset, the normal gay and the out-there gay, no matter how different they may be, on a basic level are more like each other than either one is like the straight.
This is a fundamental psychological phenomenon, and he's going to have to come to terms with it. Despite what the ranter thinks, that doesn't make the "out-there" people responsible for his own feelings of isolation.
I agree that dancing around with dildos in public doesn't do the gay community any favors -- but like it or not, Mr. Ranter, you're stuck in the gay ghetto with them and always will be and are going to have to learn to love 'em. If you want them to stop behaving in ways that make you cringe, you're going to have to win them over to your own set of tastes and values, and you're never going to do that by bashing them over their metaphorical heads.
-The Gneech
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no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 07:12 pm (UTC)I'm not either, and it goes both ways. I've long wondered why it's perfectly all right for a hetero couple to have their hands all over each other to the point you can see their arrousal but --- by contrast --- the mere sight of two men or women of the same sex holding hands as married hetero couples do causes people to froth at the mouth.
I don't see this as a gay pride/progress problem either; it's a problem any minority faces. Just take a look at the furry fandom and see how many people are doing what the ranter in the video is doing: "No! We're not one of them! We're decent people and we're not into that (but, like in your ghetto metaphor, they're stuck with them and you just bet they still have their cartoon collections, fursuits, and plushies hidden in a closet somewhere).
I've never understood either why each minority must repeatedly fight this battle for itself alone. I would think that they would have the support of others who have gone before, but it just isn't so.
Odd world, this. Everybody bleeds red, everybody needs the basics. You'd think we'd figure this out and focus on the similarities instead of the differences.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 07:35 pm (UTC)It's certainly funny ... but I doubt it helped much in the long run. ;)
-The Gneech
no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 12:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 12:52 am (UTC)Have the best
-=TK
is it legal to use a super soaker in those cases????
Date: 2006-04-15 05:12 am (UTC)MLD
Re: is it legal to use a super soaker in those cases????
Date: 2006-04-15 05:27 am (UTC)Have the best
-=TK
no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 02:21 pm (UTC)Would it have been better in class?
SCNR
CU
CJ
no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 03:43 pm (UTC)Have the best
-=TK
no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 07:40 pm (UTC)Another view:
To most people, outrageous provocateurs --of any sexual stripe-- will always be fundamentally alien, in the same way that some men and women often each other as fundamentally alien. From that mindset, the normal gay and the normal straight, no matter how different society pretends they are, on a basic level are more like each other than either one is like the shockmongers.
One thing to keep in mind -- the sexual orientation of these shockers is secondary. It doesn't really matter what it is. Calling them "gays" is a broad (and misleading) generalization in my opinion, as quite a few are not, or at least the behaviors are not.
The old fellow in the parade marching proudly with his balloon-inflated scrotum ... well, it's not clear, exactly, what his "orientation" is, or if he even capable of acting on any orientation at all. If so, such actions would be ... under pressure.
But the pressure he puts on the less outrageous, by his presence, is a negative one for acceptance in society, I think.
It's a bit like moderate people in the anti-war movement, advocating calm diplomacy instead of military action, but unhappy being lumped together with the next guy in the movement who is ranting like Moussaoui. In this country, it is legal to rant like that (but it no longer is in England, as of yesterday) -- but it doesn't help the cause of reasonable people pursuing an alternate path.
===|==============/ Level Head
no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 09:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 07:43 pm (UTC)While I gave him that seeing it happen, especially from the inside was indeed a painful thing, I think the underlying reasons for it are essentially a good thing. It seems to be this is indicative of growing pains within the community. Once upon a time, to be gay not only defined your sexual orientation, it also defined your lifestyle. The gay community banded together as such in self preservation... safety (relatively speaking) in numbers. But in doing so, one became defined BY the community. But as it's grown up, and as homosexuality becomes less and less taboo, and it becomes safer and safer to be OUT, the community members no longer feel so constrained to cling to each other for security. And the community grows up, people within it say... hey yeah I'm gay, but that doesn't mean I'm "a drag queen" or "I'm sleezy and sleep around a lot", "I'm not interested in raising a family and the suburban lifestyle". People are beginning to feel more comfortable expressing their individuality, and lifestyle choices within the gay community.
Frankly while it's not always nice to see it, the strife in the community would seem to indicative of a breaking down of the 'gay community' as it becomes closer and closer to mainstream society as a whole, and people find their own 'communities within the commmunity'
just my $0.02
no subject
Date: 2006-04-23 10:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 08:45 pm (UTC)People don't just hate gay people by default. Something causes it, and most times what causes it are the extremes. Many normal people wouldn't otherwise know one single thing about gay people because they don't do any research on it. But the few things they do see are often the overly stereotypical gay person or something such as was in the video that has caused all this debate.
And what would you think if all you ever saw of gay people were them prancing in the streets doing lewd acts? You'd think all of them were that way.
People honestly don't have as much exposure to the entire gay community as you think, mainly because most of them choose not to. It's only when something is forced upon them that they notice.
In a similar sense, this is like the CSI episode of furry. What happened when that aired? People who knew nothing of furry thought the entire community was based mainly on sex in fursuits. They had no other examples to follow, and because that one example was so horrendous to most, they chose to avoid and hate it rather than do any sort of research to see that there are decent people out there and the ones that were depicted were the few and far between.
I dunno, I watched the video again and it still made sense to me.
It's true thought that gay pride parades are probably not as bad as what the video says. I have never been to one, so I have no idea. But, and this only proves the point, what I have seen from them is usually what the media shows, and up until recently when friends told me they weren't that bad, I would have believe most of them to be as horrible as they are in that video.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 09:16 pm (UTC)When I was growing up, the homophobic boys had never knowingly SEEN a homosexual. They only knew jokes, stories, and a lot of ignorance. It's all I knew as well.
No pride parade or episode of Will & Grace caused that bigotry.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 09:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-14 09:22 pm (UTC)I do not. Not in small-town, rural Maine in the 70s.
Ignorance, for one, comes free. Jokes and stories? Hell if I know. They weren't talking about parades or anything particularly extreme, except for their own speculations.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 08:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 03:39 pm (UTC)Sometimes I despair of the human race.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-23 12:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 11:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 07:46 am (UTC)I don't think so. I think people who hate gays use the extremes as an excuse to justify it.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 12:02 am (UTC)you're right i bow to your wisdom on this point
no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 09:11 am (UTC)If Pride parades WERE just the people in support of gay rights, and fundraising for AIDS etc, maybe with some balloons and music and streamers etc then yeah I'd support it, its all the OTHER stuff he mentions which makes a lot of us cringe for the same reasons he explains.
Also that part where one guy was (hopefully) pretending to rim another guy on the street... none of our parades have ever been THAT bad!! If that had been in front of me, I would've gone "what the FUCK are you doing?!" and slapped them.
So yeah, as a gay man, I agree with the video whole heartedly.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-15 11:52 am (UTC)So you admit that the video's depiction of gay pride parades was not representational.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-17 09:35 pm (UTC)Slightly Off-Topic
Date: 2006-04-15 01:40 pm (UTC)I can’t help but think of X-Men as a reference to this:
The “out-there gays” are Magneto’s group “We are mutants/gays! We do what we want! Fear us!”
The “normal gays” are Xavier’s group “We must build a world where humans and mutants (straight and gays) can live in harmony with each other”
Naturally these two will always clash, and in the end the humans (straight) won’t care which group you belong to.
no subject
Date: 2006-04-16 01:59 pm (UTC)Humans by nature fear and generally despise anything strange or alien to them. Be it different religions, odd-looking people, new ideas, strange religions or what have you, if it's different or unusual, it is a natural target of scorn and derision, at best.
With that said, you'll find bad apples in any basket, and our loonies can be just as loony as any other group's.
*hugs
^,^
no subject
Date: 2006-04-17 05:30 am (UTC)