Uberdwarves [gaming]

[the_gneech]

I've been having an extended debate on the Paizo boards about dwarves vs. half-orcs in terms of play balance in D&D. I originally started from the premise that half-orcs were underpowered compared to the other player races, but as time went on I finally came to the conclusion that it wasn't so much that, as that dwarves were overpowered.

I eventually settled on making dwarves +1 LA for my new side game (that is, a 1st-level dwarf is treated as a 2nd-level character in terms of gaining experience etc.). The people who were arguing with me on the Paizo boards don't agree with this move either, but I'm pretty sure that the answer there is going to boil down to "we just plain don't agree, get over it." However, I am also wondering if it's actually worth the trouble to do that.

Of the gaming group, I'm the only real numbers-runner among us; I like to plumb and tweak the system, which is why I enjoyed using the HERO System so much. As such, I'm the only one in the group likely to care about a numerical imbalance between the mighty, mighty dwarf and the sad, gimped half-orc. I don't think any player in the group has created a dwarf character yet since we first started using 3.0 back in 1999 or whenever it was anyway (Has this group really been at it that long? Yikes!), so it's not like dwarves are being abused left and right. Part of that may be becuase I nixed dwarves, halflings, and gnomes for the first game we were doing, but there have been plenty of other games since then.

So I dunno, maybe I'll drop that idea and just let dwarves be uber. It's not like the GM can't stomp on 'em anyway should they choose to. ;)

-TG

Comments

[athelind.livejournal.com]

Put'em on a boat. If they get uppity, push'em over the side.

Dwarves SINK.

[the-lizard-rat.livejournal.com]

Unless for some reason they actually took a few ranks in Swim.

Even then, they'd still sink ;)

Lizard Rat out.
Sinking Dwarf in Albany NY

[dilletante.livejournal.com]

half-orcs definitely seemed underpowered to me, though they can do ok in a niche that takes advantage of the strength bonus. i hadn't noticed the overpowering of dwarves, though; is it really a whole level's worth?

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

The details of my thinking are posted on the Paizo thread I linked to above; in a nutshell, what pushes the dwarf over, in my mind, is the "+2 saves vs. spells and spell-like effects" and "+2 vs. poison" -- which essentially means "+2 to almost all saving throws" combined with a ton of arbitrary miscellaneous bonuses. While their reduced speed is a mitigating factor, the dwarf is mostly made to fit into the "tank" role, at which a human fighter and a dwarf fighter are going to be moving at the same speed because a dwarf's speed isn't reduced by armor.

I ended up comparing the dwarf to the hobgoblin and finding them fairly comparable, and as the hobgoblin is +1 LA, that was what led to that decision. (Drow are +2 LA, and considering how problematic they are (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060210a), I don't think +1 LA is that big of a hit.) Still, if there was such a thing as +0.5 LA, that's probably what I'd do instead.

The fact that it's shaving it all so thin, is what's making me wonder if I shouldn't just say "screw it." :)

-The Gneech

[dilletante.livejournal.com]

ah, i see your argument.

incidentally, the best i've done with the half-orc's +2 str is to make a monk; with two attacks per round at first level, the extra +1 to hit and damage becomes more significant. but the skill-point hit definitely hurt. and dwarves are clearly less dramatically pigeonholed.

[athelind.livejournal.com]

The fact that it's shaving it all so thin, is what's making me wonder if I shouldn't just say "screw it." :)

Well, that's what I did.

...with d20 entirely.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

No, really? You surprise me. ;P

-TG

[the-lizard-rat.livejournal.com]

I tend to over-oomph Half Orcs myself. They're supposed to be big and brawny, real trouble for the inexperienced adventurer. While PCs might use standard rules, I usually start NPC "made-to-be-HackNSlashed" half orc barbarians start at about 60-70 HP or so.

As for dwarves, my current game has dwarves extinct, so that solves that problem :P

Lizard Rat out.
Overpowered Half Orc in Albany NY