One ... Last ... Tweak... [gaming]
May. 11th, 2006 07:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
the_gneechThe difference between me and that guy at Compleat Strategist who traps you in the corner and won't stop talking about his character is that I put it behind a cut for those who couldn't give a damn.
Anyway, I was thinking about the issues I raised in a previous post about his skills and it hit me that if I gave him Str 13/Int 14 at first level (instead of the Str 14/Int 13 as I originally assigned them) he would have just enough skill points to crank up a few of his skills a bit more. For this version I also reduced his Open Lock skill slightly on the grounds that he's a scout, not a burglar, which gave him a point to put more efficiently towards his core capabilities. D&D rewards specialization, after all. So, for those who like to see such things, here's Super-Optimized Celedras:
Celedras
NG Male High Elf Rog3/Rgr4/ThfAcr3: CR 10;
Medium Humanoid (Elf); HD 3d6+6 (Rogue), 4d8+8 (Ranger), 3d6+6 (Thief-Acrobat); hp 68;
Init +4; Spd 30;
AC:23 (Flatfooted:19 Touch:16);
Atk +11/6 base melee, +12/7 base ranged;
+14/+9 (1d8+4+1d6, +1 flaming composite longbow (+3 Str Bonus)); OR
+12/+7/+12 (1d8+4+1d6, +1 flaming composite longbow (+3 Str Bonus)) w/ Rapid Shot; OR
+10/+5/+10 (1d6+4+1d6, +1 frost short sword/1d6+2, +1 ghost touch short sword); OR
+12/7 (1d6+4+1d6, +1 frost short sword);
SQ: Immunity: Sleep Effects (Ex), Low-light Vision (Ex), +2 Saves vs. Enchantment Spells and Effects; Evasion; Trapfinding; Trap Sense +1; Animal Companion (light warhorse); Track; Wild Empathy; Acrobatic Charge; Agile Fighting +1/+2; Defensive Roll; Fast Acrobatics; Kip Up; Slow Fall (20 ft.); Steady Stance
SA: Sneak Attack +2d6, Favored Enemy (Goblinoids or as recommended by DM)
SV Fort +8, Ref +14, Will +4;
STR 16*, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 9
*includes Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +14, Craft (Bowmaking) +7, Disable Device +10, Handle Animal +4, Hide +13, Jump +14, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +4, Listen +10, Move Silently +14, Open Lock +10, Ride +10, Search +10, Spot +12, Survival +6, Tumble +18.
Feats: Armor Proficiency: light, Endurance, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Longbow.
Spells Prepared (Rgr --/1): 1st - Resist Energy.
Possessions:
Weapons: +1 Longbow, composite ( +3 Str Bonus): Flaming (8,700 gp); +1 Sword, short: Frost (8,310 gp); +1 Sword, short: Ghost Touch (8,310 gp); Arrows (50) (3 gp).
Armor: +2 Elven Chain (8,150 gp).
Goods: Coin: gp (1452) (1,452 gp); Thieves` tools, Masterwork (100 gp); Bowmaker`s tools (5 gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 gp); Wondrous: Boots of Elvenkind (2,500 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Elvenkind (2,500 gp); Wondrous: Gauntlets of Ogre Power (4,000 gp); Wondrous: Quiver of Ehlonna (1,800 gp).
Evasion (Ex): If Celedras makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if Celedras is wearing light armor or no armor. Celedras does not gain the benefit of evasion if he is considered helpless.
Trap Sense (Ex): Celedras gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
Favored Enemy (Ex): Celedras gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against Goblinoid creatures. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
Wild Empathy (Ex): Celedras can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person. He rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.
Fast Acrobatics (Ex): Celedras can avoid the normal penalties for accelerated movement while using his acrobatic talents. He ignores the normal -5 penalty when making a Balance check while moving at his full normal speed. He can climb half his speed as a move action without suffering a -5 penalty on his Climb check. Finally, he can tumble at his full speed without taking the normal -10 penalty on his Tumble check.
Kip Up (Ex): Celedras can stand up from a prone position as a free action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability only works if Celedras wears light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.
Steady Stance (Ex): Celedras remains stable when others have difficulty standing. He is not considered flat-footed while balancing or climbing, and may add his Thief-Acrobat levels to Balance or Climb checks to remain balancing or climbing when taking damage.
Agile Fighting (Ex): Celedras gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC. When fighting defensively or using total defense, this bonus becomes +2. In addition, Celedras suffers no penalty to his AC or on his melee attack rolls when kneeling, sitting, or prone. This ability only works if the Celedras wears light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.
Slow Fall (Ex): If Celedras is within arm's reach of a wall he can use it to slow his descent in a fall. He takes damage as if such fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is.
Acrobatic Charge (Ex): Celedras can charge in situations where others cannot. He may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking his path. This ability enables him to charge across a cluttered battlefield, leap down from a ledge, or to swing across a chasm to get to his target. Depending on the circumstance, he may still need to make appropriate checks (such as Jump, Tumble, or Use Rope checks) to successfully move over the terrain.
Defensive Roll (Ex): Celedras can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than he otherwise would. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat, he can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, he must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll -- if denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can't use this ability. Evasion does not apply to the defensive roll.
Animal Companion: Hyzenthlay
N Male Animal, Light War Horse: CR 1;
Large Animal; HD 3d8+9 (Animal); hp 22;
Init + 1; Spd 60;
AC 17;
Atk + 4 base melee
+4/-1 (1d4+3, 2 Hoof; 1d3+1, Bite);
SQ: Scent (Ex), Low-light Vision (Ex);
SV Fort + 6, Ref + 4, Will + 2;
STR 16, DEX 13, CON 17, INT 2, WIS 13, CHA 6.
Skills: Jump +15, Listen +4, Spot +4.
Feats: Endurance, Run.
Possessions:
Armor: +1 Leather, Barding (1,190 gp).
Tricks Known (1 bonus trick): Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Heel, Stay, Work
...
So now, looking at the fancy stunts I had in mind for Celedras...
Scramble Up a Giant and Fill Him Full o' Arrows: An accelerated Climb check of DC 20 or so plus an accelerated Tumble check of DC 25 to avoid attacks of opportunity from the giant. Celedras's fast acrobatics ability negates the penalties for accelerated movement, meaning I have to roll 6+ on Climb and 6+ on Tumble. That should be doable (The "fill him full o' arrows" part is a full attack action on the next turn; alas, without the OBI ability to avoid AoO's for ranged attacks, Celedras is likely to get creamed by the giant's AoO when he lets fly. Ah well, that'll be 12th level, I suppose!)
Slide Down a Banister, Shooting: Effectively an Acrobatic Charge combined with a Balance check of DC 17. With Celedras's Balance +15, he needs to roll a 2 or higher. I can do that at least half the time!
Snipe (shoot an arrow from cover and immediately hide again): Hide check of DC of opponent's Spot check, with a -20 penalty. With Celedras' +13, effectively d20 - 7 vs. their Spot check. D'Oh. This didn't change ... I couldn't tweak that many more skill points out of it.
Leap Easily Over a 10' Chasm: Jump DC 20 for a standing long jump of 10'. Requires a roll of 6+. This didn't change either.
Amazing Acrobatic Mount Onto Running Horse: This maneuver is done after shooting wargs across great distances, of course. ;) The rules list this as a Ride DC 20, with armor check penalties applying, but don't say anything about whether that factors in the horse running or if it assumes the horse is standing still. Assuming it's just 20 across the board, that requires a roll of 11+ with the armor check penalty. I can do that on a good day.
...
Honestly, I'm not sure that this doesn't make it too easy for him. I'll have to talk to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jamesbarrett about it, as he's the GM. I might shave a couple points each off of Balance, Climb, and Tumble and put them on Hide instead (Climb giant 8+, Tumble past giant 8+, slide down banister 4+, snipe of +1 vs. their Spot). Or I might just stick with the previous writeup, with 8 fewer skill points. It is a little powergamey to grind every last skill point out of him, but on the other hand, the change doesn't effect his combat ability at all, just his stunts.
I dunno! What do you think?
-The Gneech
Anyway, I was thinking about the issues I raised in a previous post about his skills and it hit me that if I gave him Str 13/Int 14 at first level (instead of the Str 14/Int 13 as I originally assigned them) he would have just enough skill points to crank up a few of his skills a bit more. For this version I also reduced his Open Lock skill slightly on the grounds that he's a scout, not a burglar, which gave him a point to put more efficiently towards his core capabilities. D&D rewards specialization, after all. So, for those who like to see such things, here's Super-Optimized Celedras:
Celedras
NG Male High Elf Rog3/Rgr4/ThfAcr3: CR 10;Medium Humanoid (Elf); HD 3d6+6 (Rogue), 4d8+8 (Ranger), 3d6+6 (Thief-Acrobat); hp 68;
Init +4; Spd 30;
AC:23 (Flatfooted:19 Touch:16);
Atk +11/6 base melee, +12/7 base ranged;
+14/+9 (1d8+4+1d6, +1 flaming composite longbow (+3 Str Bonus)); OR
+12/+7/+12 (1d8+4+1d6, +1 flaming composite longbow (+3 Str Bonus)) w/ Rapid Shot; OR
+10/+5/+10 (1d6+4+1d6, +1 frost short sword/1d6+2, +1 ghost touch short sword); OR
+12/7 (1d6+4+1d6, +1 frost short sword);
SQ: Immunity: Sleep Effects (Ex), Low-light Vision (Ex), +2 Saves vs. Enchantment Spells and Effects; Evasion; Trapfinding; Trap Sense +1; Animal Companion (light warhorse); Track; Wild Empathy; Acrobatic Charge; Agile Fighting +1/+2; Defensive Roll; Fast Acrobatics; Kip Up; Slow Fall (20 ft.); Steady Stance
SA: Sneak Attack +2d6, Favored Enemy (Goblinoids or as recommended by DM)
SV Fort +8, Ref +14, Will +4;
STR 16*, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 9
*includes Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +14, Craft (Bowmaking) +7, Disable Device +10, Handle Animal +4, Hide +13, Jump +14, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +4, Listen +10, Move Silently +14, Open Lock +10, Ride +10, Search +10, Spot +12, Survival +6, Tumble +18.
Feats: Armor Proficiency: light, Endurance, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Longbow.
Spells Prepared (Rgr --/1): 1st - Resist Energy.
Possessions:
Weapons: +1 Longbow, composite ( +3 Str Bonus): Flaming (8,700 gp); +1 Sword, short: Frost (8,310 gp); +1 Sword, short: Ghost Touch (8,310 gp); Arrows (50) (3 gp).
Armor: +2 Elven Chain (8,150 gp).
Goods: Coin: gp (1452) (1,452 gp); Thieves` tools, Masterwork (100 gp); Bowmaker`s tools (5 gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 gp); Wondrous: Boots of Elvenkind (2,500 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Elvenkind (2,500 gp); Wondrous: Gauntlets of Ogre Power (4,000 gp); Wondrous: Quiver of Ehlonna (1,800 gp).
Evasion (Ex): If Celedras makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if Celedras is wearing light armor or no armor. Celedras does not gain the benefit of evasion if he is considered helpless.
Trap Sense (Ex): Celedras gains a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
Favored Enemy (Ex): Celedras gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against Goblinoid creatures. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
Wild Empathy (Ex): Celedras can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person. He rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.
Fast Acrobatics (Ex): Celedras can avoid the normal penalties for accelerated movement while using his acrobatic talents. He ignores the normal -5 penalty when making a Balance check while moving at his full normal speed. He can climb half his speed as a move action without suffering a -5 penalty on his Climb check. Finally, he can tumble at his full speed without taking the normal -10 penalty on his Tumble check.
Kip Up (Ex): Celedras can stand up from a prone position as a free action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability only works if Celedras wears light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.
Steady Stance (Ex): Celedras remains stable when others have difficulty standing. He is not considered flat-footed while balancing or climbing, and may add his Thief-Acrobat levels to Balance or Climb checks to remain balancing or climbing when taking damage.
Agile Fighting (Ex): Celedras gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC. When fighting defensively or using total defense, this bonus becomes +2. In addition, Celedras suffers no penalty to his AC or on his melee attack rolls when kneeling, sitting, or prone. This ability only works if the Celedras wears light or no armor and carries no more than a light load.
Slow Fall (Ex): If Celedras is within arm's reach of a wall he can use it to slow his descent in a fall. He takes damage as if such fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is.
Acrobatic Charge (Ex): Celedras can charge in situations where others cannot. He may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking his path. This ability enables him to charge across a cluttered battlefield, leap down from a ledge, or to swing across a chasm to get to his target. Depending on the circumstance, he may still need to make appropriate checks (such as Jump, Tumble, or Use Rope checks) to successfully move over the terrain.
Defensive Roll (Ex): Celedras can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than he otherwise would. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat, he can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, he must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll -- if denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, he can't use this ability. Evasion does not apply to the defensive roll.
Animal Companion: Hyzenthlay
N Male Animal, Light War Horse: CR 1;
Large Animal; HD 3d8+9 (Animal); hp 22;
Init + 1; Spd 60;
AC 17;
Atk + 4 base melee
+4/-1 (1d4+3, 2 Hoof; 1d3+1, Bite);
SQ: Scent (Ex), Low-light Vision (Ex);
SV Fort + 6, Ref + 4, Will + 2;
STR 16, DEX 13, CON 17, INT 2, WIS 13, CHA 6.
Skills: Jump +15, Listen +4, Spot +4.
Feats: Endurance, Run.
Possessions:
Armor: +1 Leather, Barding (1,190 gp).
Tricks Known (1 bonus trick): Attack, Come, Defend, Down, Heel, Stay, Work
...
So now, looking at the fancy stunts I had in mind for Celedras...
Scramble Up a Giant and Fill Him Full o' Arrows: An accelerated Climb check of DC 20 or so plus an accelerated Tumble check of DC 25 to avoid attacks of opportunity from the giant. Celedras's fast acrobatics ability negates the penalties for accelerated movement, meaning I have to roll 6+ on Climb and 6+ on Tumble. That should be doable (The "fill him full o' arrows" part is a full attack action on the next turn; alas, without the OBI ability to avoid AoO's for ranged attacks, Celedras is likely to get creamed by the giant's AoO when he lets fly. Ah well, that'll be 12th level, I suppose!)
Slide Down a Banister, Shooting: Effectively an Acrobatic Charge combined with a Balance check of DC 17. With Celedras's Balance +15, he needs to roll a 2 or higher. I can do that at least half the time!
Snipe (shoot an arrow from cover and immediately hide again): Hide check of DC of opponent's Spot check, with a -20 penalty. With Celedras' +13, effectively d20 - 7 vs. their Spot check. D'Oh. This didn't change ... I couldn't tweak that many more skill points out of it.
Leap Easily Over a 10' Chasm: Jump DC 20 for a standing long jump of 10'. Requires a roll of 6+. This didn't change either.
Amazing Acrobatic Mount Onto Running Horse: This maneuver is done after shooting wargs across great distances, of course. ;) The rules list this as a Ride DC 20, with armor check penalties applying, but don't say anything about whether that factors in the horse running or if it assumes the horse is standing still. Assuming it's just 20 across the board, that requires a roll of 11+ with the armor check penalty. I can do that on a good day.
...
Honestly, I'm not sure that this doesn't make it too easy for him. I'll have to talk to
jamesbarrett about it, as he's the GM. I might shave a couple points each off of Balance, Climb, and Tumble and put them on Hide instead (Climb giant 8+, Tumble past giant 8+, slide down banister 4+, snipe of +1 vs. their Spot). Or I might just stick with the previous writeup, with 8 fewer skill points. It is a little powergamey to grind every last skill point out of him, but on the other hand, the change doesn't effect his combat ability at all, just his stunts.I dunno! What do you think?
-The Gneech
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no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 12:17 am (UTC)You haven't seen bad dice rolling until you see what some of my players and myself seem to roll at the worst possible times. Fortunately this hasn't killed anyone... yet... (besides the Big Boss Monster that's supposed to be unstoppable yet rolls a 1 for every saving throw ever)
Off Topic: I was told the Polymorph effects changed dramatically from 3.0 to 3.5 --- you'd know this since I don't have a 3.5 DMG --- how dramatic?
Lizard Rat out.
Babbling Wolf in Albany NY
no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 12:24 am (UTC)Re: Polymorph, it's being completely altered even as we speak; I haven't heard/seen all of the details yet, but you can read about it here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a). (We never use polymorph, so it hasn't come up.)
-The Gneech
Polymorph
Date: 2006-05-12 12:44 am (UTC)-- Brett
no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 12:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 02:14 am (UTC)-The Gneech
no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 09:26 am (UTC)Polymorph
Date: 2006-05-12 12:42 am (UTC)Ok, I'm being a little over the top, but really, I think there have been 4 notable errata changes to that spell since 3.5 came out, and all the abilities based off it.
I note the latest one has been to pull it, along with all the similar alteration spells, off all the creatures that had it as an innate ability, and give them one of Change Self or Alter Self who's own descriptions no longer reference the spells.
In their defense, this is probably one of the hardest things in a game system to get right, because at heart, it's a way for some characters to, on the fly, redefine what their character is or can do.
They themselves are talking about the issue along with a currently ongoing set of articles about how it currently acts in the game.
-- Brett
no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 12:47 am (UTC)Just a thought, have you considered the alternate ranger class? It's identical, except that he trades spells for an extra 10' of movement, plus some extra abilities at higher levels (I'm not sure what, my Ranger's not that high yet.) From your description, it sounds like he could take advantage of the extra movement, instead of spells.
Just a though. Rangers are one of my favourite classes.
no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 02:43 am (UTC)And yeah, I'm all about the rangers too. ;)
-The Gneech
no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 12:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 02:33 am (UTC)Balance +14, Climb +12, Craft (Bowmaking) +7, Disable Device +10, Handle Animal +4, Hide +17, Jump +14, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Religion) +4, Listen +10, Move Silently +14, Open Lock +10, Ride +10, Search +10, Spot +12, Survival +6, Tumble +17.
Scramble Up a Giant and Fill Him Full o' Arrows: Climb DC 20, roll 8+; Tumble DC 25, roll 8+.
Slide Down a Banister, Shooting: Balance DC 17, roll 3+.
Snipe: Hide DC (opponent's Spot) with a -20 penalty, roll d20-3.
Order of the Bow Initiate has piddly little skill points (the price one must pay for full BAB), so they're going to all get sunk into Spot at 11th and Ride at 12th, probably.
-TG
no subject
Date: 2006-05-12 01:23 am (UTC)In the West End Star Wars system, with Wild Dice rules, I've seen someone start rolling with 8D6 and wind up with a total of over a hundred. It was on a Starship Dodge roll, the PCs were running from an Imperial task force and IIRC, the lead SD's tactical officer had an aneurysm and collapsed on the spot. :P