What Was I Saying...?

And he did explain himself on FA, albeit in a very long-winded tl;dr post.

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I just saw an extended version with some followup comments, that somehow managed to be even worse. Cripes. -.-

-TG

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Here's his half-assed defence.

This is why we can't have nice things!

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kensterfox.livejournal.com

tl;dr? What, can't focus for more than 140 characters at a time?

Half-assed? Only if you'd already judged him guilty of whatever it was you hate, probably before this conversation even happened.

Jay made an innocent and self-deprecating joke to a friend who knows the context behind it. Someone else took that as an opportunity to piggyback with an extreme and disrespectful statement. Jay isn't responsible for what Zaush says, and it's pretty clear that Jay did nothing except take an opportunity to make a little fun of himself.

And you're ready to tar and feather him for it. You are why we can't have nice things.

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Fair enough. I misread the situation. I find your opening line rather insulting, however.

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kensterfox.livejournal.com

It was rather insulting. I thought your criticisms were out of line, and I responded in kind. I let my desire to return fire get the best of me, and I'm sorry. Truce?

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Suits me!

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See, now this is how things should be handled in furry. Enter the trolls, however, and we get situations like the one that prompted this whole debate.

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I think Jay just sorta piped in at the wrong time with a joke that fell flat. Zaush, OTOH, is deliberately being part of the problem.

I don't think us attacking each other here helps anything tho. ^.^'

-TG

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applejinx.livejournal.com

Yep, I read that first in fact. Jay's quite concerned with drawing a distinction between 'kidding around as a notable erotic furry artist who draws in dark rooms sometimes' and 'espousing beliefs' which he's taking pains to disavow.

I particularly respect his unwavering stance that he will write about stuff he doesn't consider behavior to emulate. That's called drama and characterization, and I write/draw/create stuff that's not meant to be mimicked, too. How are you supposed to have a villain without bad people? If you are writing NSFW drama, it almost requires that there be a villain or villains.

However, Jay can take care of himself, as can I. There's shades of gray, clearly. And, apparently, shades of black, depending on how sarcastic/sincere Zaush is being.

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Zaush's intentions are completely irrelevant; the crap he posted is exactly the corrosive spew that creates the climate of fear.

-TG

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applejinx.livejournal.com

I can't help but agree. It's giving me a sense that some things are simply not good to 'joke' or more accurately be tasteless and lame about. Sarcasm as a refuge implies that sarcasm is good to have in the first place. The whole thing leaves a nasty aftertaste.

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kensterfox.livejournal.com

At least from these two messages, yeah, it really seems that Zaush is just an industrial-grade ass. But the idea he's putting forth, that ANYONE who claims they've been victimized can't be taken seriously... that's a really extreme position to take. I have to wonder why, if something happened to him at some point in his life, like being falsely accused of rape or something, to make him so bitter towards victims.

Not that any of his past experiences actually excuses what he said. Whatever the reason, an ass is an ass.

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reynai.livejournal.com

If I'm remember past furry drama correctly (which I might not be, I'm not horrible active in the fandom) this isn't the first time that Zaush has said/done things in this line, so ascribing less-than-savory intentions might not be out of line.

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anthony-lion.livejournal.com

If Jay Naylor's comment was a joke, it was incredibly badly thought out and his timing sucks unleaded...

This isn't something to be joked about when discussing an actual case of sexual harassment.

Other than that, I would like to explain why the users over at 4Chan were harassing the girl.
They're all overweight, pimply, pale bags of dough living in their parents' basement and aren't likely to ever get close to a girl any time the next century.(Unless they pay for the service on a street corner, and even then it's a long bet... )
So of course, they attack anyone who dare speak up against 'one of them' who actually dared to leave his basement and go harassing...

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Harassment it was. Bullying it was not, unless someone threatened her with physical harm.

Seriously, when someone can't take the heat and decides to remove a post, somehow they are the victim of bullying? What happened to the days when you grew a spine and shot back?

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Intimidation is also bullying.

What happened to the days when sniping at the victim was uncool?

-TG

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I agree it is uncool. But intimidation carries with it an implied threat of physical violence. As in, "Nice business you got here...I'd hate to see something happen to it."

This is not to downplay what occurred. But calling it bullying accomplishes nothing, and equates namecalling and ridicule with being beaten to a pulp. It seems to be a tactic of those who want someone ELSE to deal with the problem. They complain about the problem, and when nothing immediately happens, they call the problem something worse than it is, in the hopes that THEN someone will notice and solve it for them.

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But calling it bullying accomplishes nothing, and equates namecalling and ridicule with being beaten to a pulp.

It does nothing of the kind. That would be if someone said "intimidation = physical assault."

Both intimidation and physical assault can be types of bullying, without being the same thing as each other, just like humans and dogs can both be mammals without being the same thing as each other.

Have you ever been shouted down for speaking your mind? Have you ever just shut down on a conversation because it wasn't worth the grief?

That's what women who speak up about this stuff get ALL THE DAMN TIME.

Whether or not it's intended as such, saying "Grow a backbone!" is just another nasty snarl people who have been in the situation don't need to hear and effectively helps the assholes while discouraging the people who did nothing wrong.

-The Gneech

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Yeah, but remember:

Sticks and stones may break my bones (bullying hurts)

But words will never hurt me. (name calling I should handle)

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -- Eleanor Roosevelt

Edited Date: 2012-06-22 04:00 pm (UTC)

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rowyn

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Bullying: 1 : to treat abusively 2 : to affect by means of force or coercion. intransitive verb : to use browbeating language or behavior.

From Merriam-Webster. http://i.word.com/idictionary/bullying

The 1st and last meaning generally encompass verbal harrassment, even if it does not involve threats of physical violence. The girl who killed herself a few years back due to her neighbors' cyber-bullying wasn't threatened with physical violence, either, but that's gennerally accepted as bullying nonetheless.

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The problem is that definition can be taken so loosely as to call someone who gets annoyed at you, and calls you a doodoohead, a bully.

I really don't like situations where the "victim" gets to decide that they are a victim.

In addition, I'm willing to bet that if you went back twenty years and got the Merriam-Webster definition for bullying back then, it would differ from what it is today. Remember, dictionaries list present usage. They are rather poor as noting the change in meaning.

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rowyn

Thank you.

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^.^

-TG

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blacktigr.livejournal.com

As a Female Voice, I can say that Jay's comment strikes me as a normal joke, badly timed.

Zoush's, however, is What's Wrong with Talk About Assault. Insensitive, victim shaming/blaming, etc.

I have a coworker who had to fend off 2 guys a day ago because she was new to the area and confused and stayed out too late. She knows better than to wander alone, but a fire (many trucks) blocked her normal path. She wears her black eye proudly, but things could have been much worse.

As a Furry, I would have to say that I would make sure my costume choices reflected the amount of danger in the fandom.

Signing off before I get even less coherent. Point is that both things scare me, just a little.

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kelloggs2066.livejournal.com

I doubt Kathy and I will attend Anthrocon again.

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doodlesthegreat.livejournal.com

And things may be about to get worse. Just saw this tweet a couple hours ago, and I'm holding back the name for the moment:

Anthrocon. The Marriott. Room 317. Know anything? Three men raped me and I want to know who they were. The hotel won't release their names.

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