Weird...

[the_gneech]

That my most intense emotional reaction to the anniversary of Sept. 11 happens now, twenty minutes after it "officially" isn't Sept. 11 any more.

Time has a way of making you forget. All day today, I thought about it all in the abstract. But a few minutes ago, I had a very vivid memory, of a shot from a camera at ground level, pointed up at the second tower, and the belly of a plane coming out of nowhere and plowing into it.

It was a bright, blue, beautiful day. I was sitting on the floor crying my eyes out.

And people have the gall to be smarmy about it. Good God!

...

bearblue has posted several links that I found worth reading, here. I have copied a couple of my favorites here:

"Seeing those images again made me outraged at those of us who chide others to get over it. I am stunned that anyone could ever look at the carnage on that footage (and I saw the whole damn thing with my actual eyes)--and somehow . . . not be changed. Get OVER IT? What? Are you out of your goddamned freaking mind? What is the MATTER with you?" -- Sheila Astray, That PBS Special

"And there is such a thing as righteous anger. And sometimes righteous anger is the only appropriate emotion. Everything else is just narcissism and dogma. I don’t recommend picking at scabs, not at all. But nor do I recommend hiding scars - or forgetting just who it was that wielded the knife." --Cold Fury, Blogiversary

"Terrorists commit their acts not for the benefit of the dead, but for those who remain alive. "Look at what we’ll do to you and yours," they say," if you don’t do what we want you to do." They revel in our horror. They rejoice in the sorrow of the families who will never bury the atomized bodies of their loved ones. They say, "yeah, we did it and we’ll do it to you unless you....submit." --Baldilocks, Fear Itself

"I’ve no doubt that if Seattle or Boston or Manhattan goes up in a bright white flash there will be those who blame it all on Bush. We squandered the world’s good will. We threw away the opportunity to atone, and lashed out. Really? You want to see lashing out? Imagine Kabul and Mecca and Baghdad and Tehran on 9/14 crowned with mushroom clouds: that’s lashing out. Imagine the President in the National Cathedral castigating Islam instead of sitting next to an Imam who's giving a homily. Mosques burned, oil fields occupied, smart bombs slamming into Syrian palaces. We could have gone full Roman on anyone we wanted, but we didn’t. And we won’t. Which is why this war will be long." -- Today's Lileks

...

I apologize for being on edge today. I'll post something happy ... tomorrow. For now I'm going to go to sleep and hope I don't have any dreams.

-The Gneech

Comments

[kevinjdog.livejournal.com]

Imagine the President in the National Cathedral castigating Islam instead of sitting next to an Imam who's giving a homily.

I thought you weren't going to be a political opportunist.

[bluerain.livejournal.com]

Yay Bush! He didn't nuke innocent people or openly promote religious hatred! What a great president!

...or maybe that's an appallingly low standard. maybe we should expect more from our leaders than than simply not being supervillains.

[blackjackaught.livejournal.com]

I think it was an incredibly appropriate message sent out by Bush and his administration. The fact is, the precedent in American history is not to distinguish between the individual's crimes and those of his faith, ethnicity, nationality, etc.

I'm more than a little surprised to hear a message of tolerance and respect for a group of threatened Americans termed "political opportunism". The fact is that the President could very well have made no gesture whatsoever towards the Moslem community. The fact that he did so showed a fundamental understanding of the difference between those who would usurp the principles of Islam and the peaceful majority, something which may very well have been passed on to those Americans seeking scapegoats in the wake of a national tragedy.

And yes, I think there is something commendable in seeing thousands of one's countryment die in a senseless act of violence and having the willpower to restrain one's actions for the good of all. God knows that there were those among us who wanted to lash out angrily into the darkness and wound it as it wounded us.

[kevinjdog.livejournal.com]

I'm more than a little surprised to hear a message of tolerance and respect for a group of threatened Americans termed "political opportunism".

Whether or not 9/11 happened, we have a right to criticize the president for his actions afterwards. The last paragraph implied that we didn't have any such right because he didn't attach Islamists en masse. I want to honor the people who died by making sure such an atrocity never happens again, and I don't believe the current administration is doing that.

[bluerain.livejournal.com]

I just think not doing horrible things when they were one conceivable reaction to an event is a pretty lame thing to compliment someone for. Sure, it's good that he didn't do them, but I'm not going to throw confetti on him for it. Not nuking or interning innocent people should be the assumed standard, not an achievement for which we hail people.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

The only person I saw complimenting Bush was you when you said, "What a great President!" And frankly I'm dubious that you meant it.

I was, am, and continue to be trying to talk about the American society as a whole. Some people in the U.S., including many formerly life-long peaceniks of my acquaintance, were shouting for some pretty horrific stuff after 9/11 -- but unlike in various other parts of the world, that mob DIDN'T rule the day. That may hardly seem praiseworthy to you, but given the human race's track record, I think it's highly significant. Bush? Feh. Bush is all but irrelevant in the grand scheme of history, and all this harping on him is a red herring.

In any case, I don't want to clutter up my LiveJournal (and Thomas' and Blackjackaught's e-mail boxes, assuming they have e-mail notification of replies turned on) with this stuff. If you really want to keep the discussion going, please send it to private e-mail.

BTW, I apologize for the "get stuffed." Your comment earlier just really rubbed me the wrong way.

-The Gneech

[bluerain.livejournal.com]

BTW, I apologize for the "get stuffed." Your comment earlier just really rubbed me the wrong way.

Apologize all you want; I still feel disinclined to try discussing issues with you in any serious way in the future, if that's how you're going to react any time I disagree with you. Though I rather doubt you'll lose any sleep over that.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

What "discuss?" You wandered into my journal out of the blue and snarked at me!

Do you walk into people's houses, break their dishes, and then get offended when they kick you out, too?

-The Gneech

[bluerain.livejournal.com]

You have no idea who I am, do you? :>

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

As a matter of fact, I have. Why do you ask?

-The Gneech

[bluerain.livejournal.com]

Eh, I think it's long since ceased to be worth discussing. Rest assured I shan't be back; had kevinjdog not complained about this thread I wouldn't have shown up in the first place, and clearly it was a mistake.

But I can't say I'm terribly impressed.

[kevinjdog.livejournal.com]

Okay, now I feel really guilty for having caused this. I'm going to do my best to explain as much as I can.

Rain and I both feel very strongly about this issue. I still feel the statement in the last paragraph was more politically-oriented than you may think it is, Gneech, but that's an opinion, and I don't feel like breaking up a friendship over a difference of opinion. I did, in fact, point this entry out to Rain, in a state of severe upset. Rain basically did say what I'd been feeling about the last paragraph. It may have been blunt, it may have been direct, but it accurately reflected how I feel about it.

However, I respect both of you as individuals too much to create excessive dissonance in something as innocuous as a livejournal. This was why I chose not to debate about it. I hope that you won't think any less of me as a good, decent human being for disagreeing with you, Gneech, just as I don't think less of you as a human being for disagreeing with me, because I know you're kind to your friends, maintain a good sense of humor, and are always thoughtful about other people's predicaments. The world is about variety and I'm interested in preserving that.

Rain, also, is a very good, decent and thoughtful human being. He expresses his opinions very strongly. I admire him for his courage, and sometimes wish I had the same. Both of you have great moral character; both of you have massive talent and a humor-filled outlook on life. The only difference lies in the temparement towards the outside sociopolitical issues that shape our lives. Mine have been in line with Rain's for some time, but I've chosen to deal with it privately (or through the strip). I don't allow that to get in the way of the respect that's always due another human being trying to make sense out of life, as long as they know to live and let live; that's just my way of coping. It's not a right way or a wrong way.

Just as both of your outlooks on life are based on your own individual paths. Both of you are exactly right for being who you are. How you use "who you are" to relate to others is what gives you character. Please don't allow my ill-considered post to cause more fractiousness to this world than it needs.

In all sincerity, hoping that fences can be mended,

Thomas

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

*shrugs*

I'm not mad at you Thomas. And I don't really care what Mr. Simpson's politics are. I object to his manners, which are perfectly civilized in person, but tend to be the most excessive arrogance in letters.

He says he's gone from my journal and won't come back; that suits me fine. The reason I don't read his LJ is because I'm not interested in what he has to say. I was Mr. University Liberal myself once, and have heard it all again and again.

As long as he continues to be polite to me in person, I'll extend him the same courtesy.

-The Gneech

[bluerain.livejournal.com]

Well, in defense of my own manners, let me say that of the two of us, only I have said nothing specifically critical about anyone else in this thread.

My initial comment was directed at Lileks's reasoning, not directly at you. The language, sarcastic as it was, was typical of the sort of banter, loaded with ironic subtext, that you see in blogs of a political nature. Had a conservative shown up in my journal and said something similar by way of disagreeing with me, I would not have batted an eye.

Now, as someone who had never read your journal before, I did not know that this was any different. I saw a very political post in a livejournal, and responded the way I (and a lot of other people) do in these situations.

I want to state again that I was only here because Thomas expressed extreme disagreement with exactly the same point on which I commented. He came to me upset. I thought he needed another guy in his corner.

So of course, your response was not what I had anticipated. If you had simply said "that offends me," I would have explained that I meant no offense and apologized for it, and that would have been the end.

I did not appreciate being told to get stuffed. I ought, certainly, to have accepted your apology for saying it; had you offered it straight up, rather than putting it at the end of an otherwise rather rude post, I certainly would have.

It's unfortunate that it blew up like it did. I suppose a better person than me would still be willing to apologize to you for my role in the misunderstanding. I really was on the verge.

For obvious reasons, I'm not really in the mood to now.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Another guy in his corner? He wasn't IN a friggin' corner!

Sheesh.

Anyway, since you can't seem to keep yourself from posting here, I've banned you. If you want to keep talking about it, do it in your own LJ where it won't show up in my mailbox.

-The Gneech

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Har de har har.

Now you've scored your Snarky Points, let me point out that I was referencing the article as a cultural phenomenon, not a discussion of Bush. "The President" is a social figure, and the particular man who holds the office there is a reflection of the U.S. en masse.

Now kindly get stuffed.

-The Gneech

[torakiyoshi.livejournal.com]

Hear here! *provides the stuffing*

-=TK

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

I am disappointed in you, Thomas.

-The Gneech

[kevinjdog.livejournal.com]

You had made the statement about not using 9/11 as a way to make a political grandstanding statement. And the last paragraph implies that we should not criticize Bush because he didn't attack Islamists en masse after 9/11. There are many reasons to criticize the president in my opinion right now, and using 9/11 as a reason not to, to me, is another form of political grandstanding.

I want to separate the actions of the president from the sadness of the fates of the people in both the WTC and the Pentagon. What Bush did afterwards with his status is a different issue from the horrors of the day itself and that was the only point I'm trying to make.

I'm sorry if it upset you.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

That's an awful lot to read into it; the quote is barely about Bush at all, and certainly not about whether or not Thomas K. Dye should criticize him, on September 11 or any other date.

There are large chunks of the world where much lesser acts than the WTC call for "GENOCIDE!!!", and certainly that's the pattern of history. The U.S., as a nation, is not following that path.

That's the point of that paragraph. And that's why I was disappointed in your response. You are so focused on The Big Bad Bush -- and apparently so eager to be defensive about it -- that you're blocking out the big picture.

-The Gneech

[ceruleanst.livejournal.com]

Three of the four articles you quoted, and a twinge of subtext in your introduction, bore the message of "The Left don't even grasp that they should be upset that America was attacked. I'm so very sick of those terrorist apologists on the Left nattering away." (And at least one explicit "So don't vote for them, or the terrorists will win.") That's not an innocent tribute to the victims of 9/11/2001. I'm sorry, but it looks like you threw the gauntlet, and it's only natural for people to go on the defensive in response to such potshots.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Uh, no, three of the four articles I quoted don't have that message, and neither does what I wrote, unless you are starting from the premise that "people have the gall to be smarmy about it" is inherently a condemnation of "The Left" ... which says more about your own ideas than it does about mine.

The one, "Blogiversary," certainly has that message, in the larger context of the whole article. FWIW, it's a simplistic view, and not one that I share. Jerry Falwell, hardly a leftist, was one of the loudest voices among the "We were asking for it!" chorus.

"Shiela Astray" doesn't have that message, unless you assume, as some of the people who commented on her essay did, that the speakers on the show she watched were all part of "The Left."

"Fear Itself" doesn't talk about right/left/up/down at all.

The comments in "Lileks" about people "piling on the President" might be a conservative reaction --or an independent reaction -- or it might even be a democrat expressing displeasure with unseemly behavior from his own party.

The world is not binary, dude.

-The Gneech

[torakiyoshi.livejournal.com]

I don't think you can make that separation. The two are directly linked. Bush mourned with the country, and then acted in response to the righteous indignation of the survivors.

Though I must agree that your reply to The Gneech is rather, ah, inaccurate (for lack of a better word), seeing as not only did the quote have nothing to do with Bush's political actions but instead with his social actions and unspoken commentary, but the very fact that it was, in fact, a quote, and not The Gneech's words at all.

But, having seen your commentary in "Newshounds," I can also understand your point of view. I disagree completely, but I can understand it.

-=TK

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

I don't think Bush acted in response to the indignation of the survivors as a primary reason, although his actions were certainly compatible with those who were indignant.

FWIW, I agree with those who see more than a little opportunism in Bush the Younger. 9/11 handed him a big ol' carte blanche and he ran with it. My opinion was that he believed that war with radical Islam was inevitable (and not without reason), and decided that if was going to come anyway, it would be better for this particular country for the war to happen over there, fought with our soldiers, than over here, fought with our civilians.

A somewhat callous and self-interested idea, maybe, but he is, after all, President of the United States, and that's his job.

I also agree that the way that elements of the U.S. government, apparently with the President's blessing, are trying to slouch towards a police state, are a danger from within and must be stopped. But I don't see that as a right/left issue. Yes, the left has been warning about it the whole time, but some conservative republicans are also starting to smell the coffee on the whole Patriot Act thing, and I think that as time goes on, the basic character of the U.S. as a FREE COUNTRY will reassert itself. I just wish more people had applied the philosophical lessons of the McCarthy era rather than the operational ones.

-The Gneech

[torakiyoshi.livejournal.com]

Arguably, though, it is comparable to the United States during the F.D. Roosevelt Administration. The difference is, we have more technology, more resources, and more wealth, so it looks like more is being threatened/taken away, but if you look at the big picture, we still have a significantly smaller government and a good deal more freedom than people did during the Depression and World War II.

-=TK

[rjtremor.livejournal.com]

I remember that shot. I don't know how anyone could forget it, if they saw it.

Put yourself into that moment, into that building. A jet plane plowing into the side of where you work, a mere moment's realization of what's happening, before... silence, merciful silence, so the resounding *BOOM* from the jet fuel exploding into so many degrees of instant, painful death...

In the end, many never truly knew what hit them.

[kevinjdog.livejournal.com]

By the way, I've apologized to the Gneech and he's graciously accepted it, and I'm not debating this anymore.

[murrrmaiyd.livejournal.com]

I know the feeling about people saying "get over it"....it't not really the kind of thing you "get over".....I mean, even now, watching images of it still make me feel the same way I did when I was watching it happen live...I didn't cry over it, but it made me cold all over...chilled...creeped...just.....chilled.

Mur